The Everything "EZDrummer" and "Superior Drums" thread.

Chili said:
I thought some of the SSD samples were fantastic. Especially that Triple Snare sample. Just a great THRACK sound to it!!. But I found SSD to cumbersome for me to load and get a track going. I guess I am spoiled with EZD for just loading it and go. And I got my SSD Platinum app for free... given to me by SS himself. :) (yeah, I'm name-dropping :o )
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You must explain the name drop and reason for it (PM please). :)

I think a bunch of what drum program works for any individual has much to do with genre as well. And also the ability of the programmer and how 'real' they wish the drums to sound.

One is not necessarily the best for any given situation. I can only give my opinion based on what my experience has been with the programs I have experience with. It would be ridiculous for me to judge what would work for someone else. I will give my opinion tho. :)
 
The other thing....is that it's not always apparent how a given sample will work or not, for a given song.
IOW...I can sit there and just audition Kicks or Snares for 4 hours....and after awhile, it'd all a blur.
There are some kits in the packs that alone, don't sound anything like what I think a good drum kit should sound....BUT.....they work perfectly for a certain genre or song.

Not to mention...you often have to tweak them if you want them not to sound like a preset. Adjust the attack/decay, or the EQ or the pitch....and it can be just a small adjustment, and then the lame Snare all of a sudden comes to life.
So I don't always take the sample packs at face value....that's just a starting point, and I always end up tweaking something, and then I'll save that as one of my own kits, and maybe use it again as another starting point for something else.

Also, I like to strip away some of the excess FX/processing...and with SD, you get more of the untouched drums, where the EZ packs can have too much flavor already added to them, but they are done that way intentionally in EZ for the guys who don't want to bother tweaking. They just want the already over-processed drum sound, so they can simply drop into their project, rather than treat it like freshly recorded drum tracks that need to be worked into the mix.
 
With EZDrummer 2 coming out May 6th and Additive Drums 2 coming out May 18th I am trying to decide which one to get. I'd like you get them both but can't swing it at this time. Decisions, decisions. :D
 
jimmys69 said:
Superior is the only program I haven't tried. IMO, Steven Slate Drums sounds way more 'real' than EZD or Addictive Drums. Not much more in price. Actually, would have saved me $600 if I hadn't bought all the other crap I don't care to use anymore. EZD and AD cymbals (HH's) are harsh to me in a big way.

Just sayin... :D
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Having used Addictive Drums for a few years(?) I needed something I can install offline. I hate all those online authorization apps out there as my studio computer doesn't even have a network card so there's no way to install a lot of things.

So I checked out SSD after reading your post and bought the custom version immediately. Sounds really good from the demos. Let's see if it works out in real (well, virtual) life too.
 
All the EZ/SD stuff installs offline too....that's how my DAW is set up.

With Toonbtrack....I get the Serial # with the CD (or from the vendor if I buy a download versaion)....I then go to my Toontrack account from any computer, and log into my account and select "Register New Product"...I put in the Serial # and my computer ID # (which I already have from my previous installs)....then they give me the authorization # which I then plug back into my Toontrack product on my offline DAW. :)
Pretty straightforward.

When you start with your first Toontrack product...install it on your offline DAW, and when you go to launch it in any of your projects, you will get the registration pop-up. Pick "Offline" registration, and that will generate your computer ID # that you use when getting authorizations.

One thing to be aware of....the apps (EZ/SD) generate a different computer ID # than when installing the expansion packs (EZX/SDX)....but ALL the expansion packs will use that same computer ID.

I keep all my serial, computer, authorization numbers neatly written down as I add new packs...and I have all that info in front of me when I'm authorizing a new installation.

It's the nature of the beast....most software has some kind of security, and you might as well dive in and get use to it.
Right now I've got the Toontrack stuff which uses the serial/computer ID/authorization scheme. Then I have Waves plugs which have something that resembles the iLok scheme, where I go to their "cloud" and authorize my Waves plugs, and the authorizations end up on a USB stick, and I use that same USB stick for my Plugin Alliance plugs, and they have a similar thing....and then my DAW has it's own codemeter (another USB stick), and finally I got the iLock2 for the Slate Trigger drum replacement app........so right now I have 3 USB sticks in my offline DAW for the purpose of software authorization/use, plus there's the stuff like Toontrack products that simply use some form of alphanumerical strings to register and authorize to make it work.

Yeah...it seems kinda messy....but it's the way things are because of all the little thieves out there cracking software.
Once you get use to the few ways companies can do copy protection...it's not a real big deal, and all of them have offline authorization that I'm aware of.
I mean....why be limited to only using some software apps, just because you haver to take a few extra steps to register other stuff? ;)
One of the reasons I was hesitant on getting Slate Trigger...was because I didn't want yeto add the iLock2 dongle just for that....but now that I have it, I can explore all kinds of other iLock2 plugs/apps that I wasn't considering before. :cool:
 
You're right, Miro. It is perfectly understandable that they want to protect themselves from pirates. Most applications may have offline installation possibilities, but there are certainly exceptions. Like this screensaver I bought (I know, just a screensaver, but still) that I've been using on my online computer. My license expired just as I got the new computer for my studio, so I renewed it only to find that no offline installation is possible (I corresponded with the company about it). Of course I should have checked up on that before renewing the license, but still, that screensaver, although it's not really important at all, would make an awesome environment for the studio room.

I guess that doesn't really go for most sound related applications though, as many probably use offline computers for this purpose.
 
dainbramage said:
..........that screensaver, although it's not really important at all, would make an awesome environment for the studio room.
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If you're handy with graphics apps or something like Photoshop.....make your own. :)

I don't use one on my DAW...the screen saver option is off. If I get up for a bit, or if I pause on the DAW to mess with something, I don't want the SS popping up in the middle of things.
If I leave it set for a really long wait period....then there's no point in having it.

I think the best SS for a DAW...is the DAW app out to full screen. With the tracks/mixer up across a pair of screens, it makes a pretty awesome environment for the studio room! :cool:
 
I like having it as a standalone application when I just jam out on the guitar. It's a really psychedelic one that really puts me in the mood for doing weird shit I never thought of with the guitar (musically!). Oh well, I guess I'm gonna have to join the lava lamp club.
 
Just got an email from Audio Deluxe...they are having a sale on the full version of Superior Drummer 2.0 (includes NY Studio Vol 1) + NY Vol 2 + NY Vol 3....all for $199...just sign up for for a membership with Audio Deluxe (free).
They always have sales that beat most other sale prices.

Toontrack New York Studios Collection | AudioDeluxe

Sale ends Oct 31.

That's a great deal if you're looking for a for a great drum program and also a whole bunch of drum samples.
I already own all of that, plus some of the other SDX packs, and I like them a lot.
 
This is seriously tempting, even though my studio is currently torn into 1000 pieces and sitting in a pile while my basement is being finished...

I love the interface to EZDrummer, but the sounds are lacking to me. I like the sounds to SSD much better, but the interface is clumsy and not very intuitive to me.

I watched a tutorial on Toontrack's site, and I have to say that SD looks like the best of both worlds to me. And more samples is never a bad thing, right? Crap, I'm asking the wrong guy :D
 
Finally started messing around more with EZD2 this past week. Enough changes that certain things had me swearing at my computer!
First - when you 'browse' and find a loop you want, you have to drag it to the browse window player first, then you can drag it to the Reaper MIDI track. But when you do that, its now in both places - no big deal until you do some MIDI editing on the track, then hit play - and you get both the edited and original loops playing at the same time! (*Where the f*ck are those cymbals coming from - I deleted the f*cking things!) You have to delete the loop from the browse window player.

Second - when in the 'kit' window, you can adjust your 'power hand' (good idea), and all the active kit pieces for number of hits and for velocity - but the velocity default (12 o'clock) says '0' - it's not 0 when plugged into your MIDI track, so its hard to tell what volumes your hits are going to be (adjust by sound, not number, I guess).

Third - in the browse window, all the loops have a set bpm rate when you audition them, they do not change to the tempo you have selected in the project. That's annoying, when you're tyring to find the right loop.

Fourth - I set a default for my MIDI map the way I wanted it, with the 'DRY' kit (only one I've worked with, so far), but found that when you switch out kits, or saved settings, it doesn't always set the MIDI map the right way, have to get out of it and re-set it again.

Good stuff - the ability to change the 'power hand' and # of hits per loop really does let you customize loops quickly, unlike with the old version where if you wanted to change up your pattern a little (say going from a verse to chorus pattern), you had to find a 'near' pattern or completely make a new one with the editor.
Good stuff - the MIDI editor seems to work much better now - could be the new version of Reaper I installed last week, too.
Good stuff - I think the cymbals sound better, and the ability to select bell, bow or edge is nice, too.
 
Tadpui said:
I watched a tutorial on Toontrack's site, and I have to say that SD looks like the best of both worlds to me. And more samples is never a bad thing, right? Crap, I'm asking the wrong guy :D
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While I haven't used SSD...I do have Trigger, and the SSD user interface has a somewhat similar looking vibe from what I've seen on their site, so I'm assuming since they are both SS products, they'll have the same feel...and I kinda' agree with your view....a bit "clumsy" in that regard, bit hey, it's certainly something one can get use to with a little hands-on time, and everyone is different...so I'm sure some people find SD "clumsy" and they prefer SSD4.
It's all good. :)

That said....I would not argue that SD is probably the best of both worlds for some folks. I really like the interface, you have plenty of control over the drums tracks. You can tweak a lot, or you can also take what they give you and still end up with good sounding kits.
AFA the samples....really, you can't have too many, ;) but in the end we all find the sounds that fit our tastes, and then you work with them and build off of them.
I like a lot of the SDX packs...but there's also a few EZX packs that I use, and I'm at a point where I've built a few of my own custom kits, using SD's x-drum option, which lets me grab a snare from one pack and add it to another, etc.

So very nice stuff overall.
I'm sure SSD4 has a lot of similar options too...and yeah, they have some nice samples also.
I was close to adding SSD4 to my EZD, SD and Trigger...but I ended up going for more SDX packs, rather than adding a whole new application to the mix.

AFA EZD2....I don't think I will bother, as it's not going to give me anything new. Of course, now all the new packs they introduce will no longer be SD compatible (AFIK)....but it's OK, I've got all the sample packs I could ever need at this point. :D
 
I'm not gonna upgrade to EZD2 either, I mean, I've got lots of drum samples/sounds right now anyway, & I find myself trying to find searching/auditioning more than anything...

What I finally did is made a "franken-kit" using Superior's oh's, hi-hats & toms, but using Steven Slate Drums 3.5's snares & kicks (2 snares & 1 kick in particular)...I turn off all the ambience/room/'verb from both samplers, & made my own, a room 'verb, hall, & plate...I then send all my drum tracks (I use multi-outs) to each of these 'verbs...I think it sounds ok, not spectacular, but it doesn't sound terrible (to me anyway...lol)...

I don't use the piano roll/midi editor either, I use Jamstix 3 for the "performance"/midi, & again, I think it's pretty decent...

Is it like having a real drummer & real drums??? Well, no, of course not...I wouldn't know anyway, as I've never recorded real drums (I've mixed 'em before though, I did an ep for a band a couple years ago), so I really don't know what I'm missing...

I'd like to see what you guys do for your "performance" to make these sampled drums sound more "real" myself...While Jamstix 3 does a pretty good job, it's a lot of fuckin' work to get 'em where they sound halfway realistic to me...Post some stuff up guys, & if I can help, I'll do the same...
 
minerman said:
I'd like to see what you guys do for your "performance" to make these sampled drums sound more "real" myself...While Jamstix 3 does a pretty good job, it's a lot of fuckin' work to get 'em where they sound halfway realistic to me...Post some stuff up guys, & if I can help, I'll do the same...
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Yeah....it takes time to first get the sounds you want for the kit...then you have to work some to also make the grooves feel right.
I'm not sure what "human feel" really means to people....'cuz to me, it doesn't mean sloppy timing and shitty control of hits.
IOW...I like the drum tracks tight and sounding like they were played by someone who has full control of the dynamics....so yeah, if it's just a Kick/Snare/Hat groove....it should sound pretty solid throughout....and the small fluctuations in timing and dynamics should be just that...small.
For that.....Superior Drummer gives you like a half dozen "human feel" options that should be on most of the time. It randomizes both timing and velocities on hits, same as a live drummer would do without thinking about it. Any more dramatic fluctuations than that....and IMO, you're getting into that "sloppy playing" sound, which I guess some drummers do naturally :D and they then think THAT's what makes it sound "human"....but to me it's just sloppy.
I've heard plenty of good drummers play a groove, and that shit is almost dead-on and solid on all the hits....and you can do that with SD.

The Achilles’ Heel of programming drum grooves is in the fills….IMO. If you can make the fills and transitions to/from sound “human”…the rest falls into place.
 
Yeah dude, the "small fluctuation" thing I learned the hard way, kinda...I actually have sent some of my drum tracks to Greg, for tips/pointers on how to get 'em sounding more realistic...Of course, he picked 'em to pieces, but that's what I wanted...and, it helped me quite a bit IMO...

I've never gotten into Superior's stuff that deeply, I just have all of it turned on, & let Jamstix do most of what I want....here's a few screenshot of the Jamstix gui:




As you can see, it's pretty deep, with a lot of things you can adjust for the timing/feel/etc, & I've barely scratched the surface of what it can really do....

I know it varies from song to song, but how do you usually do your little timing fluctuations??? I'll try to make the "drummer" speed up just a little during a chorus, & play with a little more power/harder hits...Same with a guitar solo part...

The fills Jamstix makes most of the time are just crazy, but there are lots of adjustments for that too, I've found I get better results using the "simplify" knobs in the fills page...same with the accents...

I also automate the two power knob (top left hand corner, circled in red), & the timing...this allows me to control the dynamics & the feel of the song with automation, & for me, it's pretty easy to adjust in the timeline of the daw....

Post us up some of your stuff dude, let us in on your workflow!!!
 
So then .....you play the SD samples through Jamstix...?
Looking at the GUI image....it looks like it has some settings/options that are also available in the SD player.

I use the MIDI Drum Editor in my DAW with the SD player options and built in mixer.
Between the player and the editor, I can make all the needed tweaks easily.
Depending on the groove/song....I'll change up the pattern during different sections of the song, change he velocity, etc...small stuff but enough to get away from any programmed feel.
I start with picking the basic kick/snare/hat grooves for the song, then from there, I work them out to fit the song, add in the accents/fills...etc...etc.
 
Yeah, I let Jamstix do the midi & send it to Superior, Miro....While the Jamstix samples/sounds aren't terrible, Superior is well, superior...lol To me, the Jamstix sounds are like someone recorded 'em in their home. Again, they're not bad, but would take a lot more work to make sound good...Superior's samples pretty much sound good right out of the gate....

I use automation to make the power & timing a little different for different sections of the song (IE: during a chorus, I make it just a little ahead of the beat, maybe 3-5 ms...and have the drummer hit a little harder....same with a guitar solo or lead break part)...

While I've been using Jamstix for about 2 years, I'm still learning the program...especially the different drummers' playing/fill/accent habits. The "feel" thing for each drummer is pretty cool too, using that with the automated timing, it can sound kinda realistic...

One thing I like to do, that seems to add a little realism is to "rush' a fill...I'll add just a little timing nudge to a fill (maybe 2-3ms on top of whatever the timing is already doing), & have the drummer hit just a little harder here too, but it all depends on the song...

Post a sample of one of your songs dude, & explain what you've done, & I'll do the same...maybe we can compare & learn something from one another...While my programming skills aren't terrible, I still feel I can do much better if/when I understand Jamstix, & maybe have some new/fresh ideas about programming...

I used the midi editor in Reaper for about 3-4 years, & still do sometimes. Whenever I get Jamstix to the point I think I'm "done", I'll record the midi, & tweak a little here/there if I need to....

One thing I can say about Jamstix, it's still a little quirky/buggy...While it's came a long way from what it used to be, sometimes it's hard to get the drum kits mapped out to trigger the right samples (especially using a custom-made kit....like I do)...But there are work-arounds that seem to get me by...

I like where this is going dude, but I'd like to hear/see what you're talking about...
 
I'm working on finishing up some new songs right now...and I use SD to set them all up, work out what/where the accents/fills need to go, and then I try to get my drummer buddy over to lay down some live drums using the SD stuff as a guide. Of course....he's not alway available when I'm ready, so I've pushed forward on some stuff without him...meaning, I may let the SD tracks stay on one song or two, as I think they sound quite good, and I've already sorta gone beyond the drum tracks AFA recording/mixing, and I don't want to go back now to re-track drums....unless I get him to come over soon. I can also track drums with him, and then decide afterwords.

I don't want to post up just the SD drum tracks...I mean, I don't think that's going to be a good way to judge them, and until the songs are mixed, I don't much want to post any rough versions....but I will get them done soon, I hope. I've got 5 songs I'm actively working on right now....3 ready to be mixed, 1 almost, and the last is waiting for vocals and some other stuff...so there will be a few songs, and it will be interesting if you can spot which have the SD tracks. ;)

There's really nothing special that I'm doing AFA the SD tracks. I probably spend the most time auditioning the drum samples to set up a kit I want to use, and then tweaking those sounds. The grooves....well, there's usually only a couple that will work best for a given song, I mean, AFA how I'm hearing it...so after that it's all minor little stuff. A change in the timing here, some velocity variations there...and yeah, the transitions between song sections and in/out of fills are IMO the key to getting the "human feel" thing. It's easy enough randomizing the basic kick/snare/hat grooves....but the transitions & fills have to be smooth and believable, and it's often a subliminal thing. Sometimes just a nudge of 1-2 hits makes all the difference. I just keep looping the section and making those small adjustments until I hear it working.

The hard part...or at least where a lot of the work goes...is getting the drum tracks set up without having the rest of the music tracks. I usually do drums first, and at most, I might have a single scratch track...but often I just work out the drums without anything other than what I hear in my head. I know the song, I know exactly where I want a cymbal hit, or a fill, etc....so all the drum work is done like that, and then I go and record the rest of my music track, and since I'm tracking to tape...I don't really come back to the SD drums anymore. IOW...I don't record the music tracks and then go back to the SD tracks and make more changes tweaks....so once the drums are set, they are set. I actually drop them on the tape, and then go from there.

Not that I can't sync the tape back up to the original SD tracks....but I just don't, and believe it or not, the SD tracks sound better AFTER I've dumped them to tape. I kinda expected the original SD tracks in the DAW to be "crisper", seeing how the tape might roll some of the top end off....but no, they actually sound better, more "fatter" is the best way to describe it...and the top end is still there, and easy enough to EQ some if needed. So I just roll with the tape drum tracks, which then all get dumped back into the DAW along with the music tracks, and then I do my final edits/tweaks to the whole mix.

So that's kinda my work-flow, since you asked...... :)
 
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