Drum Mics

J

Janglin_Jack

New member
I am looking for some help on recording drums. We have had some mixed results with recording drums for our band. While I think the biggest challenges are the room and to some extent the kit, we do have access to a decent sized room with some treatment, we only get a few hours at a time so set up and tear down cut into the actual recording time. I've used Glyn Johns and Recorderman techniques. i have also tried ORTF for overheads and Spaced pair and XY. My biggest complaints are a somewhat nasal congested sound. Not sure how much is due to phase and comb filtering issues.

Without the luxury of being able to audition all the mics in lots of positions to find the best, we tend to set up and go. Each session is a little different from the previous. Here is what I have available.

audix i5, lots of SM57/58, Beta 57a, 545SD, e906, Audix D4, D112, Oktava MC-012 with omni, hyper and cardioid capsules, SM7B, Cascade Fathead ribbon and AKG SolidTube.

Been using Oktava as overheads, SM57 -Audix i5- beta 57 for snare, SM57 on rack toms, D4 for floor tom and D112 for kick. close mic the individual drums and ORTF for overheads.

What do you think of the mic compliment, anything missing? MD221? That said, with everything close mic'd is it possible i have too many mics and experiencing phase issues to destroy the sound? We are getting a nice sound in the room, but dont seem to be able to capture it. Should I go with fewer mics and simplify?

Deep down, i dont the the mics hold us back, but our use of them as we have similar challenges getting good recorded guitar tones.

I have noticed using other preamps like GAP Pre73 and DMP3 and RNP help a lot, i still feel like at mix time, the overheads sound good and the individual drum mics are OK, blended they dont seem to compliment and improve the sound. Snare is middy and congested, kick sounds sort of flat. I try to fix with EQ, but everything I have read, excessive EQ means we arent capturing the sounds correctly at the source. I know it is a steep learning curve, but any thoughts on how to best use the mics we have and if anything jumps out that should change, (Oktava, etc).

Anyhow, how many mics should we focus on using, and in what arrangement?

Thanks!
Mike
 
Janglin_Jack said:
Without the luxury of being able to audition all the mics in lots of positions to find the best, we tend to set up and go. Each session is a little different from the previous.
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You have a lot of issues and concerns, but there's the heart of your problem right there ^^^^^^^^^

Smart testing, patience, and a consistent approach is how you get it done. It's not the mics, it might be your drums, it's most definitely your approach that is causing you problems.
 
Also, dont be afraid to eq the crap out of things. depending on what sort of drum sound you are going for, it might only be achievable by processing the snot out of it.

You can test for phase problems by muting mics individually. If you mute a mic and everything instantly sounds better, that mic is a problem.

For the most part, a 57 on a snare with no EQ sounds pretty dead and lifeless. A d112 in a kick with no EQ sounds kind of boxy., as do toms. Even if you are going for a natural sound on the kit, it will take a decent amount of EQ.

If you are going for a natural sound, you need to get the sound of the kit in the overheads first. Get that sounding good, then add in the close mics for a little more definition and oomph.

If you are going for a larger than life sound, you will need to gate and eq the crap out of everything, dont be shy.
 
That's true. If you're going for a modern punchy in-your-face drum recording you're gonna have to do a lot of work to them. Drum tuning and mic placement are obviously the most important first step, but after that you need to massage things. Just don't immediately reach for sample replacement. That's lame.
 
Also, listen to the overheads by themselves. If they sound unfocused or messy, the room is at least one of your problems.

Where you place the kit in the room will make a difference. The absolute worst place to put it will be dead center in the room.

Is there any treatment in the room?
 
Farview said:
Also, dont be afraid to eq the crap out of things. depending on what sort of drum sound you are going for, it might only be achievable by processing the snot out of it.

You can test for phase problems by muting mics individually. If you mute a mic and everything instantly sounds better, that mic is a problem.

For the most part, a 57 on a snare with no EQ sounds pretty dead and lifeless. A d112 in a kick with no EQ sounds kind of boxy., as do toms. Even if you are going for a natural sound on the kit, it will take a decent amount of EQ.

If you are going for a natural sound, you need to get the sound of the kit in the overheads first. Get that sounding good, then add in the close mics for a little more definition and oomph.

If you are going for a larger than life sound, you will need to gate and eq the crap out of everything, dont be shy.
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OK this reassures me a bit. I thought if I had to EQ too much then we probably needed to re-record. The room is big and it has some bass traps it is a big open room and not a lot a reflections, so while not a good sounding room, i would say it is sort of neutral or even dead sounding.

Will continue to work with the time we have and spend as much time as possible at setup to get the best sound we can.. Just glad to see that having to EQ is not the death knell to our session.

Thanks,
Mike
 
When I'm going for that over-hyped 'wet' drum sound, it isn't unusual for me to add 10db of high shelf, suck out 15db of 900hz and add 9db of lows to kick and toms and then compress the snot out of them. Obviously, that is the extreme 'make it sound like a drum machine' metal thing, but it's an indication of how far you have to go sometimes to get the drums the way they need to be in the context of a specific mix.

Even with a more natural sound, you will probably want to add a decent amount of low end to the overheads to get some body.

With drums,you have to EQ out what the room is doing to you (when the room isn't great) and EQ in the tone of the drums you want at the same time. Sometimes it takes a lot to do both. That is the advantage to going to a studio with a great drum room, you don't have to do as much because the room is helping instead of hurting.
 
Jay, what are some good reference recordings to use when striving for good drum sounds, (especially during EQ and mixing). We are a rock band and do some Original material and some covers. Stuff like Stones, Black Crowes, Black Keys, AC/DC. What might be some tunes to reference for rock drum sounds...BTW I am a guitar player.

Mike
 
The bands you mentioned would be a good place to start. I would stay away from the stones classic stuff for the same reason why you would stay away from Zeppelin, 70's Sabbath, etc... Those recordings aren't competing in the same arena as your tunes will be. Competing probably isn't the right word, but you will be on an iPod being listened to back to back with modern stuff, so it has to kind of hold up to that standard.

So I would keep the reference recordings from the 90's up until now. The exception would be the Back in Black album, because those drums are pretty timeless.
 
Back in Black could be reference material for lots of things. Guitars, drums, production, everything. That album is perfect.
 
Greg_L said:
Back in Black could be reference material for lots of things. Guitars, drums, production, everything. That album is perfect.
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one of my all time favorite albums. I still remember the day it came out a kid across town bought it and we piled in some kids car and drove over to hear it. Being 11 it was a big moment for me for a bunch of reasons. Older kids including us, first album since Bon's passing...first hit of weed out of a home made corn cob pipe...o and the perfect rock record of all time.

So with this in mind, i will plan to close mic each drum...what overhead technique do you think will be the best to work with?

Mike
 
I don't really like ACDC much, but that album really does sound great.

I go back and forth between XY and spaced pair. XY will give you the least amount of phase problems, the trick is to decide where the center of the image of the drum set is and put it there. On a 5 piece, I tend to put it just to the ride side of the kick. If you put it straight on, you end up with most of the kit on the one side and the hi hat on the other. The snare is the center of the image.

With a spaced pair, I put one a little in front of the hi hat and the other just behind the ride. But you have to be careful to have both mics the same distance from the snare.
 
Farview said:
I don't really like ACDC much, but that album really does sound great.

I go back and forth between XY and spaced pair. XY will give you the least amount of phase problems, the trick is to decide where the center of the image of the drum set is and put it there. On a 5 piece, I tend to put it just to the ride side of the kick. If you put it straight on, you end up with most of the kit on the one side and the hi hat on the other. The snare is the center of the image.

With a spaced pair, I put one a little in front of the hi hat and the other just behind the ride. But you have to be careful to have both mics the same distance from the snare.
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this is when i started struggling a little. I thin my OH placement is not the best...the kit balance seems lopsided all in up one mic and the kick and snare are not both centered. When I moved away from random spaced pair to Glyn Johns and Recorderman, i started trying XY and ORTF but noticed other problems. So i think my OH placement needs some work.

Will go with XY and see how things go.

Thx!
Mike
 
The higher up you can get the mics, the more 'kit' you will get and the placement gets less touchy. If you have the mics only a foot over the cymbals, placement is a big deal.

Don't worry so much about the kicks placement in the overheads, the kick mic will overpower the kick in the overheads. Just get the snare in the center and the high and low tom on either side of the image.
 
Farview said:
The higher up you can get the mics, the more 'kit' you will get and the placement gets less touchy. If you have the mics only a foot over the cymbals, placement is a big deal.

Don't worry so much about the kicks placement in the overheads, the kick mic will overpower the kick in the overheads. Just get the snare in the center and the high and low tom on either side of the image.
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I remember reading the lengthy post a while back from Harvey Gerst. It talked to the size of the instrument and the distance the mic was placed. The closer the mic to the instrument the more mic placement is getting only a slice of the whole sound and therefore placement becomes more critical, (or the tone can vary widely). I assume this is a similar concept - placing the mics in the nearfield gets more specific sound of say cymbals, etc. Further more overall kit..

I was also thinking a bit more about the overhead mics and had a question about Recorderman placement. Is this an "overhead" choice or more of a 4 mic system for the drums? Just wondering about adding mics to that Recorderman system, is that just going to fall apart, (Room mic, snare top and bottom, etc).

I was going to do some testing in my house with borrowed drums and wanted to try different mic placement ideas, and didn't know if the Recorderman pertains to just the overhead placement, or if it is the system of 4 mics only, (OH and kick and snare).

Thanks in advance..Happy Holidays!!
Mike
 
Hey Jay, If there are phase issues with the overhead mics, can he nudge the tracks a few milliseconds to compensate? I have no experience mixing real drums, only virtual drums. 1 millisecond = 1 foot or something. Or by a number of samples?
 
IN the DAW, you can line it up by eye. If you know what you're looking for, you can zoom in and see what the problem is.

The interaction between the snare and the overheads is the biggest thing that you need to deal with. The snare sound in the overheads is naturally a little later than it is in the snare mic, and that is OK. It gives you the sense of space. however, if you are getting some cancellation between the close mic and the overheads, you simply need to nudge the overheads a bit to stop that from happening.
 
Janglin_Jack said:
this is when i started struggling a little. I thin my OH placement is not the best...the kit balance seems lopsided all in up one mic and the kick and snare are not both centered. When I moved away from random spaced pair to Glyn Johns and Recorderman, i started trying XY and ORTF but noticed other problems. So i think my OH placement needs some work.

Will go with XY and see how things go.

Thx!
Mike
Click to expand...

Well until you get the kit sounding good and balanced in the overheads the rest IMO is moot. Most of the overall drum sound comes from the OH s unless you are just using them as cymbal mics. Recorderman is the easiest to set up. If you have problems with that then you don't have it set up right. YouTube has videos showing the set up.

Get the OH set up add kick and snare and you should be able to get decent drums. I think you said you have an SM7 - give that a turn on the snare but it's a big mic so don't hit it.
 
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