Recording drums and rhythm guitar as initial multitracks

JeffF

New member
My 24 track recorder has only 1 headphone O/P, but with special equipment I can send a R/L line to the drummer and one other instrument as my initial tracks.

I am thinking that the drummer would be able to better sense the progression of the song if that second instrument is the rhythm guitar simultaneously recorded. Your thoughts on this choice as a drummer, please, and basis for them--just a few replies in feedback and reasoning would be fine.

Lastly, I've asked elsewhere but if I may again, since I can use certain headphone line equipment to get from the single O/P jack what would be R/L signals sent to both the drummer and rhythm guitarist, would drummers tend to prefer their drums and the guitar sent in stereo or with each instrumentalists (drummer and guitarist) having his/her own channel as R/L selection for panning? Your choice, please? After a few replies, that would be enough for me to get an idea--no need to drag it on but your reasoning would help me, please.

I'll be bed resting from medical issue over the next couple of weeks but will look for your reply every other day. Sorry I cannot reply after next couple of days, but your replies are greatly appreciated and will be uplifting.

Sincerely, JeffF.
 
It's definitely a good thing for the drummer to play along with more of the band while tracking. I prefer to have the whole band playing (and tracking), with vocals, with the focus on capturing usable drum tracks. If you can only have one other input then the rhythm guitar is a good option. Another option would be to submix more instruments (rhythm guitar, bass, vocals) into your spare input for reference purposes, then replace them individually later.

Lately I've been using one shared stereo mix for everybody, so I know it can be done. If that's not effective for you, you could try something like the Behringer HA4700. That will allow you to use left and right as separate mixes to different headphones, and it would allow you to inject additional signal into each headphone send (e.g. "more me").
 
Lastly, I've asked elsewhere but if I may again, since I can use certain headphone line equipment to get from the single O/P jack what would be R/L signals sent to both the drummer and rhythm guitarist, would drummers tend to prefer their drums and the guitar sent in stereo or with each instrumentalists (drummer and guitarist) having his/her own channel as R/L selection for panning? Your choice, please?

A lot of your question is going to be based on who is playing what and what style/genre. When I was drumming acoustic kits, all I needed to hear was the keys. If I was on a e-kit, I did not where headphones at all. I just listened to the mons behind me. A lot of drummers will leave one can off to hear their own kit if it is a soft play, like brush work or maillots. Either way, I would recommend that you have the proper setup, to suite anyone who preferred either way.

Hope you get to feeling better. :thumbs up:
 
Hello Bouldersoundguy,

In your recent use of stereo singling sent to everyone, what are the musicians' thoughts voiced about this approach, especially in finding their signal in stereo with other instruments? I could do this with my 24 track recorder, with perhaps the Behringer unit you suggested or maybe something from PreSonus--I'll review your suggestion to consider at least providimg the option--thanks.

Before your reply, I thought about using stereo to at least get the bass laid down with the drums and rhythm guitar, but that's a lot of signaling in the low to low-mid range, which I presumed would make it even harder for each of these instrumentalists to hear their signal. Any such problems?

In stereo, I can imagine the guitarists turning up their volume or playing with more attack or the drummer playing with more intensity. Are you hearing any subtle differences in how musicians are playing?

Are all the musicians using the same model of headphones? (I was looking at Sennheiser's HD280 based on its isolation for protection of muscians' hearing and reviews of its flatter response though some find this model is weak in bass response, others say its not an issue.)

Thank you, JeffF.
 
Hello Mack Caster,

First, thanks for the thoughts of wellbeing, greatly appreciated. Feeling well enough, this evening, to reply.

I value your feedback on seeking to provide options to all musicians. Your shared feedback helps me to greater realize that drummers vary in approach and preferences, maybe even more so by nature of the technique and kit setup.

While I will have equipment limitations--if not due to design of recorder then financially in working around limitations--I want to make sure the drummer is able to hear their playing as accurately as possible whether in sound level or tonally, and too, safely in terms of volume exposure.

Gratefully, JeffF.
 
Hello Bouldersoundguy,

In your recent use of stereo singling sent to everyone, what are the musicians' thoughts voiced about this approach, especially in finding their signal in stereo with other instruments? I could do this with my 24 track recorder, with perhaps the Behringer unit you suggested or maybe something from PreSonus--I'll review your suggestion to consider at least providimg the option--thanks.

Before your reply, I thought about using stereo to at least get the bass laid down with the drums and rhythm guitar, but that's a lot of signaling in the low to low-mid range, which I presumed would make it even harder for each of these instrumentalists to hear their signal. Any such problems?

In stereo, I can imagine the guitarists turning up their volume or playing with more attack or the drummer playing with more intensity. Are you hearing any subtle differences in how musicians are playing?

Are all the musicians using the same model of headphones? (I was looking at Sennheiser's HD280 based on its isolation for protection of muscians' hearing and reviews of its flatter response though some find this model is weak in bass response, others say its not an issue.)

Thank you, JeffF.

Everyone's using HD280s, except the pedal steel player who uses his own headphones that he feels fit better. Sometimes the musicians would like custom mixes. If I carefully balance the mix they share, and pan things like guitars to the sides, it's pretty workable. In a way it can be a really good thing as it makes them all play as an ensemble, but there are advantages to having separate mixes.

The bass player really wants to hear his bass, kick and snare, some guitar and not so much pedal steel. The pedal steel player never gets quite enough of his own instrument, but we generally assume it's going to get replaced so it's not too critical. The singer is typically in the control room doing scratch vocals, where I can adjust the volume of the monitors so she can hear herself in the room. Since I mostly want to capture drums I make sure the drummer gets a mix that works for him.

I could set things up for more mixes but the room is also a rehearsal and performance room with the other mixes used up for stage monitors, which I turn off for recording. While sharing one mix for recording is a disadvantage, being able to switch from rehearsal mode to tracking mode by just plugging in headphones and building an amp tent is an advantage.

I've thought about getting a couple of these to expand my options: Rolls Corporation - Real Sound - Products PM50s Personal Amp
 
Your shared feedback helps me to greater realize that drummers vary in approach and preferences, maybe even more so by nature of the technique and kit setup.

You can take that same quote and apply it to every musician regardless of the instrument they play.

While I will have equipment limitations--if not due to design of recorder then financially in working around limitations--

Welcome to the world of audio. Just remember BOAT. (Bust Out Another Thousand). :laughings:

I want to make sure the drummer is able to hear their playing as accurately as possible whether in sound level or tonally,

Most drummers feel their sound, and since it is percussion, I have yet to play were anyone had the ability to drown out the sound coming from my kit, by the time it hit my ear.

and too, safely in terms of volume exposure. Gratefully, JeffF.

Unless you are dealing with children at a young age, most if not all drummers will know their own limitations on receiving the information back from their kit and as far as volume exposure goes, two things you should never ask/tell a drummer.

1. Can you turn the volume down on that kit?
2. Where is your hearing protection?

Again, all of this is going to be dependent on the skill of any musician, as well as the type of music they are playing. My Pastor asked me a few times to play my drums softer. I told him I would, if I did not have to compete with his guitar set to full volume. He later apologized to me as he did not realize as he got into the song, his playing got louder and I was simply following his lead.

It takes great self discipline to not get excited, when you play. The drummers role is to set the tempo of the music, so others can play at the same speed/timing. Musicians are like a box of chocolates. They come in many flavors and some you like, and some you just want to spit out.
 
When I was recording other people, I would have a guitar, click and vocals for the drummer. (if he can play to a click) Sometimes bass too.

When I was the drummer, I would have the guitar player play the song to a click. Then I would play to the recording of the click with the guitar. For me as a drummer, the click is my timing reference and the guitar is just there so i don't lose my place in the song. After the drums are recorded, I get rid of the click (except for the count in and to cover any stops in the song) and the rest of the band plays to the drums.
 
When I was recording other people, I would have a guitar, click and vocals for the drummer. (if he can play to a click) Sometimes bass too.

When I was the drummer, I would have the guitar player play the song to a click. Then I would play to the recording of the click with the guitar. For me as a drummer, the click is my timing reference and the guitar is just there so i don't lose my place in the song. After the drums are recorded, I get rid of the click (except for the count in and to cover any stops in the song) and the rest of the band plays to the drums.

That's how I do it. In this scenario the biggest hurdle for me is to ensure the energy is just as good as it would be in a live setting. Sometimes it can come off a bit flat.
 
My band played to tracks, so I was always on a click. In fact, the click track had a mix of the full band, so I always heard the same thing in my ear every time I played. This made me very consistent, so the band could always count on me being where I needed to be, when I needed to be there. That gave the rest of the band much more freedom, knowing that I wouldn't get pulled down a rabbit hole if the guitarist started to get "fancy".

The whole "live excitement" thing is just about being 'present' while you are playing. It takes practice to be able to put yourself in that headspace without an audience (or whatever external stimulus is needed for you to react to) It also takes teamwork.

But there really is no difference in the guitar player playing to you live and playing to a recording of you playing live. It's all in your head.
 
A note to all who were so helpful in sharing their insights and experience--most helpful. I also wanted to let those parties know I am doing well, nothing serious. Most gratefully, JeffF.
 
Hello BouderSoundGuy,

What you recommended of considering, the Behringer HA4700, indeed looks best for my goals.

In case you need more headphone O/P capacity and if the HA4700 cannot be chained (unsure), ART makes a very similar model with 6 O/P with same controls for $200 new at a major online retailer: model ARTHeadAmp6-ch headphone amplifier. For specs here is the manufacturer's website: ART Pro Audio. (I have not used ART products previously, so I cannot comment on overall product quality.)

I do have a few follow up questions, please, if you have time for brief reply.

1) Since I have not previously used rack mount units. I found what is reviewed to be a sturdy, 2' high, angled frame, priced at $25. Is using a rack mount as simple as screwing the front brackets onto a frame? I ask because it looks like a rack unit would need something of support underneath though none of the frames I saw sold use such support.

2) Separately of question about the HA4700, can the rhythm guitarist get a better sense of his/her signal as well as the bass guitarist by setting their tone controls toward treble, bass, respectively?

3) With you using the HD280's, which I am also purchasing for musicians, is the bassist or drummer experiencing any weak bass response with the phones as some reviewers have commented, others specifically say not a problem? If so, does bass tonal control with the HA4700 compensate well?

4) Lastly, I may not be using stereo, in general, for playback while multitracking parts, but I am interested in seeing if vocalists tend to get a better sense of their signal (voice location/pitch) by sending the playback and his/her signal in stereo, using a bit more volume for the vocalist's signal. Any thoughts on this as of benefit for vocalists?

Thank you for the advice on the HA4700; I saw a way to do what I wanted, but it would have cost about $400 in equipment--I just never considered a rack mount as I thought mounting would be an added budget expense, if indeed the simple rack I saw will be typical of all that is needed.

With sincere appreciation for further insights, if convenient--JeffF.
 
1. Most rack mount gear is supported by just the front panel brackets. Some heavier amplifiers have provisions for rear support.

2. The tone controls can help somewhat make it easier for two players to share a mix, but it's not the perfect solution.

3. The tone controls work about as well as any simple bass and treble controls. I do boost the lows for the bassist in one group I record.

4. Stereo almost always helps the musicians distinguish what they're hearing.

In some ways it's cheaper to build something like the HA4700 than to build several smaller devices. Four headphone amps sharing a case means they don't have to have more external connectors, they can be wired together internally on the circuit board. It costs less to provide one larger power supply than four smaller ones. One company can use one basic case and power supply design for a bunch of different products, saving them even more money.
 
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