Huge Snare..

drummerdude666

immature
Recently ive had a run of pop/hardcore/emo type bands recording at my project studio.

All have a deadline for the final mix in the next few days- i thought i was finished mixing - but i had another listen to the mixes today. Then compared against commercial recordings to see what the differences were.

The biggest hold back straight off was the bands talent. Just not being tight, being generally sloppy and singers who need a bit more training.

So i concentrated on the mix instead, and the biggest thing i noticed was that awsome vocal sound and how well it sat with everything. But i cant really do much about that. You just can't polish a turd.

Ok.. im rambling. :rolleyes:

What i want to know is how do they get that HUGE snare sound in these emo bands? Bands like Funeral for a Friend etc.

I just dont see what they're doing to get that sound...
 
Mixing in samples ~50/50 on the snare and compressing the drums to hell seem to be the trends.

I like to set up a snare and mic it however I can get the absolute best sound out of it, usually the mic isn't right up on it, and also use some overhead and room mics. Record some hits on the snare and process as you wish and use those as samples in Drumagog or something similar. Then mix that in with your original snare sound and you should have something slightly closer to that huge snare sound.

Also, DVerb in Pro Tools sounds really nice on drums and gives it some bigness. I like using a medium hall at about 10-20% or something like that.
 
im thinking it must be the samples then..

I'm not much of a samples fan with drum kits. I'm a bit of a purist i guess. But i shall have a tinker and see what i can do.

My OHs and room mics became basically useless as the drummer was using he crashes as rides throughout the sound. Without getting quieter cymbals im not sure what to do with that.

Compressing it to hell and back ive tried.. but the sound in the first place is 'huge' enough for it to make much of a difference.

Any other thoughts?
 
Initially you need a drummer who knows how to tune and hit the drum (most often that's not the case). I'm a traditionalist like you and prefer not to use samples, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do...

I was tracking a guy last week who insisted on using a 13" POS snare (with a dented up 2-ply coated head on the bottom, but that's another story). When he came back in to retrack, we changed the dented head for a new single ply coated, tuned that lil' 13" to perfection and gave it a good smack - BINGO...

Turns out he hits the drum much different than I do, so I still had some work to do. First, I swapped out SM57 for an e609. Placed moongel near the top of the snare, then spent a few minutes finding the sweet spot with the mic.

Many engineers try to get the mic as close to the drum as possible, but I've found 2"-4" inches away OR MORE can give you a fuller sound.

On mix down, I sent the snare track to a gate, then compression, then reverb and got a huge sounding snare to blend with the overheads. You'd never guess it was a 13" snare.

Hope this helps a bit. Cheers, Rez
 
We tracked it with one of my 10" Black Panther snares.

At that stage he said he wanted a 'crack', and described his band as pop rock. So i choose my 10" snare instead of his out of tune export snare that needed a new head.

He loved the sound of my snare.

Once the rest of the instuments were recorded i realised the sound he must have wanted - and the one i should have tried to record..but too little too late.

Thanks for you help Rez.

Any chance of some clips? :)
 
You're in for a ride...

Over time, I've painfully found out things that affect my work ethic today, and I'll share that so maybe you get a perspective on the matter. Especially in this case where you have a run of "polishing turds" back to back.


-First you have to rewind and go back to the root. What snare where these kats using? I mean was it a pic snare? thick snare? Metal? Brass? Stainless Steal? Wood? Maple? What mic did you use?

How many mics?

You have to ask yourself these questions cause this is going to affect the sound dramatically.


It was for this reason that I got tired of certain tastes bands tend to have when they are inexperienced. Keep in mind that what I'm about to say is a bit of a catch 22, cause an engineers holy creed is to preserve the sound of his subject as the subject wants it.

But sometimes you have to think for your subjects. So I established this work ethic:


-I bought and customized my own snares that I bring to every session no matter what. After about a month of thinking what music I would work in, I finally settled on a 5 by 13 inch maple snare, 5 by 13 inch brass snare and your standard 5 by 14 stainless steel. Remo weather kings: Emperor on top, ambassdor on the bottom.

This settled nicely in between. I always have different sizes to work with. Of course the real talent is to convince Jimi the drum distroyer to use your snare over the typically problematic snare these guys bring in.

The reason you have these sizes is because sometimes you might have to go over the top to get this huge snare. It might be the 13 inch that does it, or it might be the 14 inch. You never know until you feel how the guy plays, what room youre in, how your drums are tuned, etc.

I've never gotten a complaint yet, so if you bring that up, I don't suppose anyone will fight you to the death over it.

-I bought my own custom heavy duty guitar amp. Likewise with the amps and FX, sometimes these guys need a boost in the right direction. However, no details here cause the focus is on drums.


-It's probably advisable to make a worthwhile investment into serious compression. You don't need 30 of them, just 1 good multi purpose will take you far.

In some situations, you may need to track with heavy compression on the snare to achieve that larger than life sound.


But alright enough of that, that's just some of the basic stuff to give you an idea. It basically lets you know that it's ok to be anal and develope your own work routine.


Tracking and Mixing wise:


I'm going to try to lay the chips out as best I can, cause this one is just a personal one you can't just figure out in a self help cook book. You gotta visualize the sound.


So first you consider micing. You usually find yourself with an MD421 or SM57 on the bottom snare. The top mic is usually where artistic expression comes in. I used to do SM57s on the top as well, but I eventually stopped because the SM57 only goes so far as your top snare mic.

There's generally alot of EQing that goes into the mixing, plus I could have avoided this with a beautifully capable condenser "full body" mic on top.

As stupid or as pointless as this sounds, the combination of both bottom and top are actually going to instantly give you perspective on a complete snare sound. Of course remember about polarity.

Sometimes a 3rd mic is introduced into the equation. If you have open channels to do this with, you can set up a 3rd mic facing the shell itself (on the side of the snare at 90 degrees). As to what mic to use on this, I leave that up to an imaginative mind.


The mixing aspect:


So how the hell do you mix all this? Well that depends on what you want. If it was jazz or funk, then probably what you already have is not too far off. If done in a good room, then the dry/hollow sound of the snare (combined with the room) may suffice.


But if you want big snares, then you gotta think big. Huge reverbs with short decay times (fast music), massive punchy EQ and serious compression.


For this, it would take me all day to tell you word for word to achieve a sound that only you can hear in your head. So rather than get specific, just a few basic pointers:


-Your top head is your leading track. Here you get most of your body, your punch and your initial attack. It can usually be left dry with the support of your bottom head. You can compress this track, EQ it, whatever.

-Your bottom head is your supporting track. Your "FX support" if you will. You can send this off to a reverb of your liking for added dimension in combination with the top head. You can try gating this head and set your release times to the tempo of the song to tighten things up.

So if you solo this out, you hear a snare going directly to your reverb. You solo out this and your top snare, then you suddenly have the makings of a good snare sound.


-Other things to consider is sound replacement and layering. A trick I learned to "modernize" snare drums was to use a combination of both.

You simply create as many copies as you feel nessessary of your main snare track. Then you can either find FX that you like for those copies and print them to the track. So you'll always have your main unaltered snare, but now suddenly you can mix and match all these snare FX tracks. Plus they'll always be on time cause they are simply a copy of your snare track. That is if you don't decide to print a delayed effect!

If you want to get even more silly about it, you can edit exactly when you want certain snare effects to come in (like a chorus or bridge). So you can have this crazy digital snare in the verse and suddenly you switch up to a super duper whatever effect on the chorus. Keep in mind that the orignal snare track is still leading all of these to fortify the effect (if you choose it that way).


The other way involves sound replacer and a good library of snare FX samples. You can simply take your copied tracks and build custom layers by sound replacing the original source with a digitally sampled version. Alot like the other one, but cleaner and million times more flexible.



Cool huh? Now maybe you've armed yourself with knowledge that just might be able to make your bands look better than they may be.



(I think I'm going to repost this, maybe others want in on this.)
 
I'm not familiar with the sounds that you're going after, but a basic fattening trick is to take the snare track and make a copy of it. Delay the 2nd track, 100% wet by less than enough to get a slapback effect, with no repeats. 20 milliseconds or less? It's hard to say without knowing what the attack & decay of the snare sounds like - it should be a short enough delay that it doesn't sound delayed.

Stick your new snare track in the multitrack and pan that and the original to opposite positions in the stereo image. Rather than having 2 points of snare, they will connect to give you a wall. Adjust each track respectively to get the width you want. I'm not sure if this is the kind of "big" that you're going for, but it will make it wide. Maybe some kind of gated reverb thing stapled on it at this point could add depth.

Again, I'm not sure how this will work for you, but it might be worth a try.


sl
 
drummerdude666 said:
Thanks for you help Rez.

Any chance of some clips? :)

Tnx- I often ask my clients if they mind if I post clips of their stuff here and they almost always say no. Lemme see what I can do though, just to give you an idea... shhhh- don't tell ;)

BTW- I've got a Black Panther 14" - Mapex makes some KILLER snare drums!!! I love the sounds- esp. for recording.

Lee- great info - cheers, Rez
 
LeeRosario - Thanks for that, i really appriciate it. I think the biggest problem is recording the right snare sound in the first place... i have 3 snares which i use in my 3 diffrent bands. Non of which suit emo/hardcore huge drum sounds.

Replying on badly tuned snares is not an option.. so i might have to invest in ANOTHER snare. lol.

I never let them use their own gear anyway! :)
A lot of the bands i record are teen/kiddy bands (im only 16, older bands dont like a kid recording them) and they always have crappy gear which they cant use.

Thankfully i play drums so have a Mapex Orion :) And as for guitars, im fortunate in the fact that both my dad and my brother play guitar, and they have amassed quite a collection.

Thankyou again for your advice - its definatly given me food for thought.

Snow Lizard - I'd already doubled up the tracks with some delay but i revisted my settings after your post and spent more time fine tuning them - its improved already - so thanks :D

RezN8 - yeh i love the BP snares, soundwise and how god damn sexy they look. ha!
 
drummerdude666 said:
The biggest hold back straight off was the bands talent. Just not being tight, being generally sloppy and singers who need a bit more training.

I feel your pain. I have worked with my share of bands in the past where the talent is not really there. I have found it really hard to mix bands like that because the parts are not not in time together enough for the mix to make sense. :(
 
Big ass sounding snare drum = big ass sounding snare in mix.
And replace bad hits with good hits, and a good portion of compression.
I wouldnt use samples if the snare work is technical but how much emo/pop has technical snare. :D

Eck
 
ecktronic said:
Big ass sounding snare drum = big ass sounding snare in mix.
that's it in a nutshell. you can't record (let alone playback or mix) what's not there to start with.

(well, i suppose you CAN mix what you didn't record by using sample replacement/augmentation, which is what i'd do here along with ample compression)

keep in mind that a lot of these drum tracks are recorded in big sounding (or at least great sounding) rooms with a good console and mics to 2in tape--all of which can not be overlooked here......nor can be easily duplicated in a basement with low-end/typical home-recordist gear.

i say make the best of what you've got and use it to the fullest extent of your ability and the rest be damned.


cheers,
wade
 
A lot of guys doing that stuff use samples, actually quite a few of them have bought our stuff. Samples will add consistency and bigness if the right samples are used.

BUT, if you want the big sound with no samples, simply start at the source. Get a big sounding snare. Tune it somewhat medium, you don't want it to sound like a piccolo. Some dampening and some loose snares can add to the fatness and decay. Then mic it top and bottom with a pair of Audix i5s and slam some low shelf and high shelf eq and see where that gets you.
 
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