That's exactly why I tend to quantize the kick on 1. Makes it easier if you want to add fills or rearrange measures. You get a smooth transition. You could get the same feel by moving the ride back a little and the snare back farther, with the advantage that each measure begins right on 1.
getting a slack feel in a programmed drum beat?
- Thread starter Nola
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That's exactly why I tend to quantize the kick on 1. Makes it easier if you want to add fills or rearrange measures. You get a smooth transition. You could get the same feel by moving the ride back a little and the snare back farther, with the advantage that each measure begins right on 1.
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4tracker
Guest
Thanks, Robus. Good to know it's a real problem.
I'll have to try moving the ride back tomorrow, and if it doesn't work I'll just move the kick right on the beat.
I figured out that Pavement tune, btw, in ten minutes. I kept the kick on 1, swing on the high hat 2%, and then moved the snare manually so it's lagging. This worked like a charm and gives a slack feel.
I'd like to hear it. I'm surprised you can hear at 2% swing on the hats. I'll sometimes put a little swing on my hats when the overall groove is straight time. Not a full shuffle, somewhere in the range of 25-40%. I've been playing around with ideas from Bernard Purdie, who played a triplet hat pattern over a half-time kick and snare groove on some classic Steely Dan albums. It's called the Purdie Shuffle.
Farview
Well-known member
Which part of the drum kit is keeping time changes from song to song. You have to listen to see which one is driving the song.
Quantizing the kick on 1is a good idea. You can also move the fills to line up with the kick.
It's funny how many nuances there are to mess with, that a drummer just does automatically.
This all seems fiddly, but imagine trying to program a robot to walk down the street, or any other thing that people do automatically.
Quantizing the kick on 1is a good idea. You can also move the fills to line up with the kick.
It's funny how many nuances there are to mess with, that a drummer just does automatically.
This all seems fiddly, but imagine trying to program a robot to walk down the street, or any other thing that people do automatically.
4
4tracker
Guest
I did the swing last, and I'm not sure I'd be able to hear it on its own, but in combination with the kick on 1 and the late snare, if I bumped the hat swing to 3 it began to sound weird. Maybe it was specific to this setup, or maybe I am so used to the quantized sound that I'm now sensitive to this, or maybe I can't hear it and it's placebo effect. I will upload the file soon and hopefully get some feedback on how to improve it. I don't want to hijack the thread, though, but it's on topic.
One thing I notice is the bass drum sounds odd if the velocity is always the same, but it also sounds off if I change it to where it's noticeable. What do you recommend for the kick velocities?
4
4tracker
Guest
I only did 8 bars (the duplicated it to 16) and did them quickly (20 minutes total), but curious to hear how I can make this more like the Pavement/Range Life vibe. I'm fairly happy with it as is but feel something is off in the kick hits. The chords to the song are A-F#m-E-D-A if you want to play along and feel the vibe. Any tips to slacken it/humanize it...or any constructive advice would help and is welcome.
I'd be curious to hear if you think the lag is enough to give a slack feel.
https://soundcloud.com/4-tracker-1/range-life-drums-1
I'd be curious to hear if you think the lag is enough to give a slack feel.
https://soundcloud.com/4-tracker-1/range-life-drums-1
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I tend to vary the velocity of my kicks, but not randomly. It depends on the groove, but usually one kick is stronger than the others in the measure. If it's a funky groove, that will be the kick on 1. In a standard backbeat with a kick on 1 and 3, it could be one or the other depending. The difference in velocity doesn't have to be great at all. It's can be slight, just enough to create a feel.
Here's another thing. When I have two kicks an eight note apart, one will always be stronger than the other. Nothing sounds more robotic to me than two kicks close together in time with exactly the same velocity.
For example imagine a standard backbeat with a strong kick on 1 and 3, and a kick on 4& that leads the kick on 1 of the next measure. I'll set the velocity of that 4& kick lower than the others--if it's a driving groove, slightly lower. If it's a more laid back groove, much lower. Try it.
Generally but not always, kicks on the eight notes get less velocity than than kicks on the quarter notes. There can be exceptions. For example, imagine a half-time pattern with a kick on 1 and a kick on 2& that leads the snare on 3. Sometimes a little more velocity on that eight note kick gives the snare a bit more excitement too. Subtle differences in velocity can make a noticeable difference in feel.
Once the groove is more or less done, I'll often use Humanize to introduce slight variations in velocity. I use low settings, like 5-10%. This shouldn't change the relative strength of hits, but just makes things sound a little less robotic. I don't tend to use Humanize for timing, because real human timing errors are not random, they have a bias. My timing mistakes tend to rush. Groovier players than me tend to lag. Most Humanize programs can mimic that bias, but it rarely sounds quite right to me. Human timing errors are also contextual. They're more likely to affect some elements in a pattern more than others. Or maybe I haven't experimented enough with Humanize timing to get good at it.
Here's another thing. When I have two kicks an eight note apart, one will always be stronger than the other. Nothing sounds more robotic to me than two kicks close together in time with exactly the same velocity.
For example imagine a standard backbeat with a strong kick on 1 and 3, and a kick on 4& that leads the kick on 1 of the next measure. I'll set the velocity of that 4& kick lower than the others--if it's a driving groove, slightly lower. If it's a more laid back groove, much lower. Try it.
Generally but not always, kicks on the eight notes get less velocity than than kicks on the quarter notes. There can be exceptions. For example, imagine a half-time pattern with a kick on 1 and a kick on 2& that leads the snare on 3. Sometimes a little more velocity on that eight note kick gives the snare a bit more excitement too. Subtle differences in velocity can make a noticeable difference in feel.
Once the groove is more or less done, I'll often use Humanize to introduce slight variations in velocity. I use low settings, like 5-10%. This shouldn't change the relative strength of hits, but just makes things sound a little less robotic. I don't tend to use Humanize for timing, because real human timing errors are not random, they have a bias. My timing mistakes tend to rush. Groovier players than me tend to lag. Most Humanize programs can mimic that bias, but it rarely sounds quite right to me. Human timing errors are also contextual. They're more likely to affect some elements in a pattern more than others. Or maybe I haven't experimented enough with Humanize timing to get good at it.
I wasn't able to go back and listen to the Pavement song again, but you groove sounds pretty good. The behind-the-beat feel of the snare is slight but noticeable. I wouldn't be afraid go later still, at least to try it. You'll tell when the snare is too late, because it will start to pull against the groove.
What I always try to do when setting up a drum groove is play along on bass. If I can get the drums and bass happening, then everything else will fall into place. Well, usually...
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4tracker
Guest
Thanks.
Is there a way to "nudge" the snares back in Cubase? I couldn't find it in the drum editor. I only was able to do it manually and it made it harder to experiment with position.
4
4tracker
Guest
Yeah that is how I did it. I just wondered if there was a way to nudge it as it's playing so you can hear exactly where it feels good.
Nola
Well-known member
thanks for the help everyone this was a learning experience.
i can get slack drums now.
i'm still having a problem with 4/4 time with a triplet feel. when i move the snare in that time it sounds bad and off time instead of slack. is it possible that a quantize actually sounds better on some types of beats like 4/4 triplet?
i can get slack drums now.
i'm still having a problem with 4/4 time with a triplet feel. when i move the snare in that time it sounds bad and off time instead of slack. is it possible that a quantize actually sounds better on some types of beats like 4/4 triplet?
Triplets are powerful. That's why the standard blues shuffle feels so irresistible. It's that underlying triplet feel that gives it the drive. If your timekeeping instrument is doing triplets, everything else is going to have to mesh with that. I do often lay back on the snare when I've got a swing on the hats, but it's usually not a full shuffle.
You should listen to Bernard Purdie's playing. Anything on Steely Dan's Gaucho, and a good part of Aja and The Royal Scam feature him. Purdie and Chuck Rainey on bass were one of the gooviest rhythm pairs you'll ever hear. Purdie's signature sound was a triplet pattern on the hats, usually with a half-time kick/snare. Listen to how he lays the snare to get some ideas.
You should listen to Bernard Purdie's playing. Anything on Steely Dan's Gaucho, and a good part of Aja and The Royal Scam feature him. Purdie and Chuck Rainey on bass were one of the gooviest rhythm pairs you'll ever hear. Purdie's signature sound was a triplet pattern on the hats, usually with a half-time kick/snare. Listen to how he lays the snare to get some ideas.
Nola, here's an experiment with a Purdie Shuffle kind of thing. The ride is doing 1/8 note triplets. The kick and snare are on a half-time groove. Here's how it breaks downs:
Two bars of just the ride, then:
A. Four bars with everything quantized to the beat.
B. Four bars with the snare slightly late.
C. Four bars with the snare still later.
There's a splash at the start of each section.
To me, A sounds okay but maybe a little robotic. B sounds better, maybe a little late on the snare. C really drags. So somewhere between A and B might be the sweet spot, depending on the tune. Tell me what you think.
Two bars of just the ride, then:
A. Four bars with everything quantized to the beat.
B. Four bars with the snare slightly late.
C. Four bars with the snare still later.
There's a splash at the start of each section.
To me, A sounds okay but maybe a little robotic. B sounds better, maybe a little late on the snare. C really drags. So somewhere between A and B might be the sweet spot, depending on the tune. Tell me what you think.