The Fake Drums Tone Thread

I recently heard a song I hadn't heard in 5 years and was completely surprised to find that it was done with 808 style drum track...If you're not specifically listening for real drums, you just don't tend to notice.
Then let's also consider there are genres where real drums would not normally be used. The thread is a good idea.

Anyone ever work out how to get realistic cymbals/hats? I still have a hard time making them not sound like "programmed" drums. You get great drum samples with every package, but the cymbals always need help...
 
Something thing I use for my fake drums is Jamstix 3. I see a lot of people who like this plug-in, & there are a lot of people who don't. It is a complicated, hair-pulling plug-in until you get a handle on how to use it. I've been using JS3 for a couple/few years now, & I honestly have barely scratched the surface to what it's really capable of, but there are ways for that are better for me to edit/change in the piano roll/midi editor...That said, I don't use it like most folks would, while I do use it for controlling the velocities of the hits overall, I use it more so to control the timing/feel more than anything. Plus, I like the fills it generates (most of the time...), because they're not pre-set loop, & you can have quite a few variations...

So, I basically figure out what kind of beat I need, set up the different parts in JS3 (intro, chorus, etc) & the part length (IE: intro = 3 bars, chorus = 5 bars), & make sure everything matches up, length-wise. I'm not gonna go into detail much more about Jamstix 3, as it has all kinds of shit you can change (drummers, styles, accents, fills, etc) other than the 2 basic controls I use with automation: power & timing...

Here are the main controls I use in JS3: Power (how hard the hits are obviously), dynamics (the lowest/softest velocities are determined by this knob), & the "feel" parameters (each "drummer" has this, although they're the same controls for all, each one seems to act a little differently with each different "drummer")...




I set up 2 automation tracks, power & timing. Then I draw in the curves/points where I think they need to be (IE: some drummers speed up during a fill, so I'll speed up the timing a few milliseconds during a fill...same thing with a chorus, etc...same thing with the power knob, some drummers will play a little harder during some parts compared to others)...




I personally don't use the power knob a whole lot, as I'll be tweaking the velocities in the midi editor anyway, but the timing knob/slider to me is very important. That's pretty much what makes up the feel of the beat, & I try to make JS3 act like a drummer would, actually speeding up/slowing down for the different parts of the song...

Once I have JS3 pretty much how I want, I send the midi to a blank/empty track, & record the output (I use Reaper), then send that midi to the drum vsti, & bypass the actual JS3 track. Like I mentioned, it's just a lot easier for me to edit the midi by hand for most of what I do...

Since I'm assuming quite a few of you don't have or use Jamstix 3, here's where what I'm trying to say actually applies (this starts for me once I've got the midi recorded to it's own track, & I actually start tweaking the hits...)...

Assuming the hits' timing are about how I want 'em (one could do this in the piano roll, sliding certain hits ahead/behind where needed, or I suppose you could use a tempo map or tempo markers to do this, just slightly speeding up/slowing down where the song needs it...it's just a lot easier for me to let JS3 do this...), I start tweaking the velocities...

I usually start with the kick/snare, then go to the hi-hat/ride cymbal. I try to leave "headroom" enough that my hits aren't maxed out. For a snare or kick, I rarely ever have any hits at the velocity of 127. I try to make my max be around 122-124, depending on the drum vsti/sample I'm using...I try to never have the same velocity following itself (IE: the snare's velocity would be: 116, 109, 112, 104)...I go through the song part by part tweaking all the hits doing this until I think they're ok...

This takes a lot of time & effort, but is very important IMO to make these drum samples sound half-assed real. I can't stress this enough.
The actual velocities are way more important than anything, & that's it pretty much in a nutshell: the velocities are 99% of drum programming, & especially the hi-hat...

There's no way possible to hit a kick, snare, hi-hat & 3 cymbals all at the same time, either, so a little common sense goes a long, long way...

So, I basically took up 3 pages telling you guys to tweak your velocities...:D.
 
Minerman, remember we've talked about Jamstix 3 before. I'm not using it at the moment, the PITA factor is just more than it's currently worth to me. I'll give JS4 a fair look if it comes out. I've made a couple of suggestions that Ralph is aware of. First is to fix the "pocket" function, which is potentially the coolest thing in the whole program but doesn't work properly. Second is improve the damned fills. I'm glad you can use them; I can't. They're crazy over the top and don't follow the pocket and swing settings of the main groove. I gave up the songbuilder sequencer feature as just too clumsy, but that's not essential. It's easier to import the grooves right into the DAW as you go.
 
Minerman, remember we've talked about Jamstix 3 before. I'm not using it at the moment, the PITA factor is just more than it's currently worth to me. I'll give JS4 a fair look if it comes out. I've made a couple of suggestions that Ralph is aware of. First is to fix the "pocket" function, which is potentially the coolest thing in the whole program but doesn't work properly. Second is improve the damned fills. I'm glad you can use them; I can't. They're crazy over the top and don't follow the pocket and swing settings of the main groove. I gave up the songbuilder sequencer feature as just too clumsy, but that's not essential. It's easier to import the grooves right into the DAW as you go.

Sounds like you guys know each other?
 
I gave it a listen Jimmy. Drums sound good to me. I've just found it's a fool's game to guess what's in somebody else's mix. I get it wrong too often. :confused:

What did you think of mine?
 
I gave it a listen Jimmy. Drums sound good to me. I've just found it's a fool's game to guess what's in somebody else's mix. I get it wrong too often. :confused:

What did you think of mine?


What, the one you linked that said 'RAMI'?

I didn't realize it was a link to your drum program. I thought you were kidding.


I'll go back and take a listen.
 
Unhappy coincidence. :eek: It's an internet name I've used for years, based on my initials. Had no idea about the forum user of the same name when I started that Soundcloud. I've thought about ditching it for another, but I hate to change now that I've got material up.
 
Regarding the thread. There's not a great deal to know about fake drums, you get decent samples, imagine a drummer with 2 arms and 2 legs and try and losen it up on the grid so it sounds almost real. Post something up and see what people think you're doing wrong.

Ideally, we could now leave the Whole of the drum forum to people who can actually drum!
 
Okay, here's one. A few bars of the drum groove followed by the same in its musical context, an instrumental section from a song I hope to finish in the next few days. The samples are from the stock EZ Drummer kit, but I might switch those out for something else. No mix to speak of yet.

It's an uptempo backbeat shuffle. The shuffle is on the 8th note hats and kicks, so the strength of the shuffle feel depends on the volume of those relative to the quarter note hats and kicks. At the moment I've got them set fairly low, hats especially. Nothing is quantized. Snares are slightly ahead of the beat, which is unusual for the songs I've been doing lately, but I thought it propelled the groove just a little. On the other hand, the bass is playing behind the beat. The contrast between early snare and late bass sounded off-kilter and interesting to me. I'll take this down once I've posted the finished song on the Clinic.

Doesn't sound like there's enough variation over the intro. All the particularly there a are beats, they all sound virtually identical. It also sounds like the drummer grows an extra arm when he hits the crash.
 
Ok, I'll hybrid bite. What here is fake and what is a sample? Scratch tracks for a project I am working on. Everything is in raw stage of drum recording.
What's fake in there? The ride sounded a little strange (in front of everything else) and some of the fills sounded a little repetitive but it still sounded like a real drummer
 
Cool. Thanks, mate. I'm going to give the drums another edit all the way through. I'll check that three armed drummer out, thought I dropped the hats on the crash but maybe missed some. The full song is nearly done. Finished sorting out the lyrics and vocals, so it should be up on the Clinic soon.
 
I am surprised none of you responded to what is fake in my post....
I did download/listen Jimmy, but Miro already answered what I thought (the click/sticks on the intro) were fake/sampled, so I really saw no need...:).
FWIW, the drums in that song/clip have a 3-d quality I've only heard in real mic'd drums. It's kinda like the real amp thing I keep chasing with ampsims, & keep failing to achieve. If I could get that little quality with both my fake drums and ampsims, I'd be a happy man, but I just don't think it's possible unless I'm missing something obvious...The shells aren't as bad, but every drum vsti I've ever tried/used has this strange quality to it I can't get out, especially the hi-hats & cymbals. I know these drum vsti's are meticulously sampled/recorded, but there are way more variations in a real hi-hat's semi-open sounds than 4-5 between being fully opened/closed, probably 10 times that...Again, maybe I'm missing something obvious...

Robus: Re: JS3, the things you pointed out about the fills are why I use the timing automation. I'll speed up the fill part to make up for however milliseconds the pocket is. And yes, some of the fills are over the top, but you've just gotta keep playing with the knobs/sliders until you find a happy medium. Tedious & time consuming, yes, but that's the only way I know to get there. Most of my fills are pretty simple to be honest, they're actually more like accents...JS4 will be out sometime & should be better than v3, but it's an on-going process kinda like Reaper, they never have all the features and/or bugs worked out when it's released, which is good that they keep working on it, but can be a pain for some folks...Ive never had much luck importing stuff into JS myself, but to be honest, I've only tried it a few times. If I can't get something to work for me pretty quick, I usually move on to try find a way that does.....YMMV.....

JDOD: The velocity thing is key with these drum vsti's. I have a little personal rule about 'em for certain things like the hi-hat, I try to have a difference of "7" between each hit that's the similar velocity (IE: 109, 45, 122, 52, 101. 41, 115, 48, etc)...If you notice, the hits that land on the snare are a little harder than the kick, & there's a difference of "7" between the hits that land on the kick and the snare...I know sometimes this just isn't possible, & you've gotta let it go, but that's pretty much how I do the hats...

I even have a little e-kit (Yamaha DTX-400) that I use to try to make these things sound more real, but I still end up tweaking the midi to help 'em along...again, maybe I'm missing something obvious...
 
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