Drum newb shopping for a first kit

The only thing I see wrong with that snare trick....well two things...

1) You have to start with a brand new head. An already stretched/rippled head might not react properly.

2) Related to #1...once you beat up a head, this trick might not be as effective and you'll have to resort to standard tuning methods.

As for resonant toms, I just think they sound better. They're musical. They cut through a mix. And like you said, you can always deaden them if necessary. And the "doppler" tuning just sounds cool. :D
 
The Glenn Fricker thing was where I was at 15 years ago. It works well with any drum kit, any heads, etc... but is only really appropriate for dense mixes. Nearly everything Glenn says is from a recording engineering perspective, and are the things that make his life easier. It isn't necessarily the best thing to do artistically, the best way to tune, or the most appropriate for your situation.

There are other silly things that people do, like tune the kick and snare to the root note of the key of the song and tune the toms to the scale, but that's a little silly too.

Greg's suggestion for finding the centerline of the kit is spot on. I would do the same thing, even when using an XY pair. On giant 80s kits, I would have 3 overheads one above the hat, one pointing between the floor toms (assuming 2, not 3) and the other at some point above the toms between the other two. All had to be equal distance from the snare. Thank goodness no one uses gigantic kits like that anymore.
 
Meinl are getting a name for themselves, but it's hard to tell whether that's because they really are great or whether it's because they're spending ridonculous amounts of cash whoring themselves out to name drummers.

I have a Meinl china and I love it. You've heard it a few times. It has a dark trashy depth to it. Not harsh at all.

Whores or not, I am a believer.
 
OK here's where I'm at, after trying a few things as far as overheads and spot mics. I like the spaced pair overhead placement the best. And I've re positioned my tom mics so they're pointing more towards the rims than towards the center of each tom. For the kick, I've got the mic just inside the port hole. And the snare mic is right about at the rim, pointed about 1/2 way between the rim and the center of the head.

So here's a sound check, just whacking away at the kit pieces individually, then some not-so-impressive playing of them all together. No FX or EQ, just some level adjustment to bring the super-loud toms down by about 6dB, the overheads are panned 100% L/R, and the toms are panned 20L, 20R, 60R.

I'm just wondering how this sounds to you experienced fellows. I'm still new enough, I'm pretty much impressed by anything :)



And just because I'm feeling ambitious, here are pics of my mic positions, if it helps in making suggestions for adjustments:
IMG_1599 (Large).JPGIMG_1617 (Large).JPGIMG_1608 (Large).JPGIMG_1610 (Large).JPGIMG_1615 (Large).JPGIMG_1606 (Large).JPG
 
Not too bad man! You've come a long way in little time.

My only worries are the kick and snare. They sound fine on their own. In a soft sparse intimate mix it'll be fine. When you kick it up a notch, that kick will vanish. The snare will have no crack or presence. So just be mindful that all of that tuning and mic placement will have to change from mix to mix depending on how wild you wanna get.
 
Thanks Greg! I owe any and all progress to you and the other fellas in this thread, that's for sure.

You touched on the one thing that I've had trouble with while mixing this kit so far, and that's the kick. I've tried a few different mic positions. The one shown above sounds the best to me, but doesn't have much punch. If I put the mic farther inside the kick, closer to the beater, then I get that "bouncing basketball" kind of sound as a tradeoff to more beater smack. I'm not sure what to do.

I just watched a great video from Creative Sound Lab with some suggestions about phase and mic positioning. So I think today's mission will be to understand that a little better and do some experimenting. I don't want to get into scooting tracks this way and that in my projects, so I'd like to know what it takes to get things working together by mic positioning and/or flipping polarity.
 
Thanks Greg! I owe any and all progress to you and the other fellas in this thread, that's for sure.
Cool, glad I could be some help.

You touched on the one thing that I've had trouble with while mixing this kit so far, and that's the kick. I've tried a few different mic positions. The one shown above sounds the best to me, but doesn't have much punch. If I put the mic farther inside the kick, closer to the beater, then I get that "bouncing basketball" kind of sound as a tradeoff to more beater smack. I'm not sure what to do.
The kick is one of those things IMO that you can go super heavy handed with EQ and compression if you want to. A well tuned kick doesn't care if you go squashing it to hell and carving it up with EQ. Kicks only have so much range of natural good sound, so sometimes you will have to annihilate it in the mix. But before you do all that, tune it, muffle it, and mic it as appropriately as you can. If attack is a problem, change your beaters to plastic or wood. Use a thick falam patch. These simple changes can yield a lot of natural slap and then you might not have to put the mic so close to the batter head. If you're getting bouncy ball syndrome, maybe the heads are too tight. I keep a small pillow in my kick drum that can be turned to touch both heads, one head, or neither head. It's the perfect size. I can reach in there and flip it around to suit any need. Try to find a pillow that fits yours. That'll help a lot. And then, EQ and compress or compress then EQ as necessary. Kicks really respond to compressor attack and release times.

I just watched a great video from Creative Sound Lab with some suggestions about phase and mic positioning. So I think today's mission will be to understand that a little better and do some experimenting. I don't want to get into scooting tracks this way and that in my projects, so I'd like to know what it takes to get things working together by mic positioning and/or flipping polarity.

Rami told me about flipping the snare track a long time ago and it works awesomely. I do it probably about 75% of the time. I flip the kick sometimes too. It just depends. If I'm not getting enough meat from the snare, flipping the phase usually does the trick better than EQ. Sometimes it makes the kick just too much though. You just have to try it and see. It takes nothing to try. I wouldn't worry about sliding tracks around. I've done it, I used to like it, but I got over it. Flipping the phase is better IMO. If you set up your overheads properly for the room you're in, there's no real need to slide tracks around.
 
The way to combat the basketball sound is to put a blanket or something in the drum. It doesn't have to touch the heads, it just has to absorb enough sound to keep it from bouncing around the inside of the shell. I used to use a couple prices of auralex that I had laying around.

If you want good smack out of the kick, you need a hard beater. You also need to hit it with some authority.
 
Right now I'm using an Evans EQ pad, which is a lightweight pillow kind of thing that velcroes inside of the drum shell. I really like the dampening it provides on the batter head, but maybe its not enough mass to affect the resonances inside. This kick is kind of odd in its dimensions. It's 20" x 17", so it seems really deep for that small of a diameter. It was super "bouncy ball" sounding before I put the port hole in the reso head. With the mic just inside the hole, the bouncy ball thing doesn't seem to be a problem. But if I move it deeper in there to get it closer to the beater, it sounds pretty odd.

So far my favorite thing to do when processing the kick is to use Dave Derr's suggestion on a Distressor: 10:1/opto mode, slowest attack and fastest release. It really does emphasize the punch and click. But I've found it to still not quite be enough to allow it to compete with the bass guitar. I'll have to practice some EQ cuts/boosts on both.

I like the idea of using a falam patch to get a little more attack, I might try one of those. And the hard beater is a good idea as well. Jeez, so many things to try!
 
The kick pad only keeps the heads from resonating. It does nothing to keep the sound bouncing around inside the shell. The basketball thing is the sound of sound bouncing around inside a tube. Just take a small blanket and put it on the bottom inside the shell and the problem will go away. The blanket doesn't have to touch the heads at all, it's just there to keep the sound from bouncing around the shell.
 
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