Best way to record with V-Drums

S

Strong

New member
Hello, all. I'm new to the forum, and new to recording. I need help! The questions I have may seem pretty basic to all of you, but I'd appreciate it if anyone could offer some assistance. Thanks.

I'm setting up a home studio with a drummer who has Roland V-Drums with a TD10 brain. I need to know what the best way to record these is, as it will influence what sort of equipment we have to purchase. We're going to operate with a Digi 002. We're likely going to upgrade the converters, and we're also evaluating what we're going to need as far as pre-amps go. I know nothing about midi. Or much else, for that matter. I just know I want to record drums and get the best sound possible using what we have.

Specifically:

1. Do you have to record what comes out of the brain in a stereo right and left (ie your drum mix gets done in the brain and all you have control of in the mix is two channels)?

2. Can you make the brain send out, say, 8 separate tracks (each being a different drum), thereby having control over 8 different drum tracks in the mix?

3. Is the best way to get the signal from the brain to the track via midi, and if so, what is the physical set-up we need to accomplish this? If not, what is the best way (best signal, most control over sounds)?

4. If you thought the above was elementary/inane, try this: does the TD10 output have to be routed through a pre-amp of any sort?

5. Similarly, does the TD10 output have to be routed through an AD/DA converter? I.e., are we going to have to get an 8-track converter to properly record 8 different tracks of drums?

6. What would you recommend in terms of (a) AD/DA converters that would be up to the task, and (b) pre-amps?

7. Am I overlooking anything that I need to know in order to do this right?

I apologize for the rudimentary nature of these questions, but hey . . . you gotta start somewhere. And again, for anyone who takes the time to stoop to my level, I appreciate it very much. Thanks.
 
I use the TD-10exp brain with my Hart kit, and record with it all the time.

1. You do not have to mix in the brain. In my opinion, it is far better to route to the 8 outputs and mix in a better mixer. For some reason, the summing inside the TD-10 just doesn't sound good to me. External mixing will give you a somewhat higher quality signal. In the mixer page, I route the kick to main R, the snare to main L, the four toms are panned across direct 1, the cymbals except for the ride and hat are panned across direct 2, and the hat is on direct 3 L and the ride (both bow and bell triggers) are on direct 3 R.

2. You can have 8 totally discrete outputs- but I like grouping like instruments as above.

3. I always track to MIDI, but also print a rough stereo reference/work mix of the drums as an audio track as well. I do all my mixing in the analog domain, so that lets me have the drums come in from the TD-10, driven by MIDI, at the time of the final mix. That leaves me ultimate flexibility in tweeking tunings, instruments, and levels right at the last minute. I record to Cubase in my rig, so the MIDI setup is dead easy: one cable for send, one for return, and a simple USB MIDI interface to get the MIDI into the3 machine.

4. The TD-10 puts out very satisfactory line level outputs, so no preamp is needed. You may choose to use one as an effect, but you can go right into a line-level inpout on a board or converter box.

5. Yes, for computer recording you'll have to go through an A/D to get the audio into the machine. If tiy are using 8 discrete outputs, you'd need an 8-channel A/D. Or, you can mix in the analog domain and use a 2-channel. Or, if you track to MIDI, you can use a 2 channel converter, and simply play the track 4 times, recording a different pair of outputs each time- the MIDI will handle the synchronization for you...

6. Your choice. If you have the funds, I like the RME ADI-8 8-channel converter unit, but it's a bit pricey. What is your budget? At least you don't have to drop loads of bucks on boutique preamps... (;-)

7. The only odd thing about using discrete outputs is it makes it pretty much impossible to use the internal reverb/ambience effects- since the effects themselves can only be routed to one pair of outputs, you'll have ambient bleed from the whole kit onto your nice discrete outputs. So you'll need to kill the internal effects on the patches you use- not that that's any real loss...

There are no silly questions- nobody was born knowing how to do this stuff! Hope that helps...
 
Skippy, thank you for responding in detail. That helps me immensely.

Re: budget for AD/DA converters, I've been looking into the Apogee Rosetta, which I understand is about $2500. That's as high as I'd want to go. Am I over the top, or way under? Any feedback on the Rosetta? And where can I find info on the RME ADI-8 you recommend?

Thanks again.
 
If you have that kind of a budget available, it's really hard to throw stones at the Apogee products. The RME is a lot less pricey- around $1500: http://www.rme-audio.com/english/adi/adi8ds.htm . There are some folks out there who think it is at least comparable with the pricier units, and it certainly works for me. Do a keyword search here on the site for "Apogee Rosetta", and you'll find quite a lot of info on the older 2-channel unit- but not many of us here have used it, primarily due to the cost factor, let alone the new 8-channel version...

One other point: I use the RME Hammerfall card in my DAW so that I can fly as many as 24 tracks in simultaneously. I can use the 16 converters in my Fostex D1624, and the 8 in the ADI-8, and input/output 24 to mix in the analog domain. If you haven't looked into multichannel digital I/O cards, that one is well worth a look while you are over on the RME site: http://www.rme-audio.com/english/hdsp/hdsp9652.htm . This is a newer version of the Hammerfall than I have, and it has some new features that might be of interest... All I can say is that the original Hammerfall, now discontinued, has been stone reliable for me. Your mileage may vary!
 
One other important point that I neglected to mention: the TD10 has single-ended (unbalanced) outputs, and as such it is much more subject to problems with ground loop induced noise than if it had balanced outputs. To get the noise floor down to the absolute minimum possible, you'll probably need to address this in your installation- either with the power source/grounding structure, or in the worst case with isolation devices in the signal path.

Just a heads-up... but if you're spending that kind of money on the converters, the rest of the system will need to be very carefully designed to properly capitalize on their capabilities!
 
IMHO, you will get much better results just recording the midi from the brain as your drummer is playing then rerouting all of that to a good drum sample library like drumkit from hell or sonic implants. No need for any expensive converters. Drumkit from hell is like 100 bucks.
 
Thank you all for your input. This is fantastic -- I'm going to have to hang out here a lot more frequently. I'm open to any other suggestions anyone may have. Thanks!

By the way, erichenryus, could you describe the process you talk about in a little more detail, for a guy who doesn't know the first thing about midi? If I understand, midi outs on the TD-10 go to the computer and get sent to a drum sample library (right? this is software, or simply a collection of files, or both?), and then when you're taking it out of the library, you tell the computer what samples to use (and that corresponds with the particular triggers recorded via midi)? Or am I way out to lunch?

Also, what's the physical setup for accomplishing this? Ie, what gets plugged where, in and out. Thanks.
 
You record the MIDI output from the TD-10 to a MIDI track, just as if you were going to simply replay it on the TD-10 at a later time. You can then redirect the MIDI output to drive a soft (computer-based, sample-based) instrument. I use Battery for this from time to time, for example. The MIDI stream triggers this soft instrument running on the computer just as if it was a standalone hardware box with the MIDI cable plugged in. Magic!

The beauty of recording the MIDI stream is that you can then use it to trigger *any* instrument you like, soft or hard, and manipulate the performance to your heart's content. I have actually made a great deal of use of the TD10's internal sounds (after a bit of editing), but having a range of sample-driven soft instruments available really does expand the possibilities you have at hand...
 
I agree that recording the MIDI performance to allow for triggering whatever sounds or samples you want is a great way to go - however that makes the TD10 and awfully expensive MIDI controller.

One of the primary advantages of the TD10 is the fact that it has 8 seperate outputs. If you choose not to use the module's sounds (or all of those outputs) you would likely be better off using Hart of Pintech pads to trigger an Alesis module.

Since you already have the TD10 the front end cost is already there - in which case it would make since to use the sounds in the module as much a possible. Certainly using samples in addition to (or layered with) the TD10 could give you the best of both worlds.

I'm a big fan of recording the MIDI performance to allow for some fairly detailed (and relatively easy) MIDI editing (just in case the drummer is a little sloppy).
 
mikeh said:
...just in case the drummer is a little sloppy).
Click to expand...

or the mistriggers are driving you nuts!

I hate using electric drums but have no alternative right now so I generally just record the midi and route it through Kontakt using whatever sample library works best for the song. There is simply no comparison between high grade cymbal samples and the crap that comes out of the Roland module. But most importantly I'm able to get the ghost notes to be more present using midi filters and eq settings on the sampler.

The one thing I still can't get to work with v-drums is anything related to hihats. They just always sound bad to me.

I also generally stay away from anything requiring really fast repeated notes like rolls and ruffs. That always comes off badly as well.

Actually, I haven't yet done anything with electric drums that I've really liked except.......bring them to band rehearsals. It really helps to bring the overall band volume down in a rehearsal setting.

just random thoughts on the difference between electric drums and real drums.
 
Hey all - i am thinking of getting a Hart set - Skippy, any feedback there?

All the above issues i have considered, one thing I have not yet done is actually recorded with an e-kit. I played a roland once, thought it felt pretty good, but the sensetivity seemed pretty stiff. a friend of mine told me he thought the sensetivity was very dynamic and that i must have had the brain set incorrectly... could be.

The TD 8 has four outputs - whaddya'll think of that unit?

I have sampletank - it seems to have some weird latency issues and gremlins that I can't figure out, even with sweetwater tech support. Anybody got recommendations for a soft sampler and a cheap controller with ample outputs? How many outs does the Alesis have?

peace.
 
I've always been satisfied when I've played on Hart pads. THey trigger well and seem to be built well.

I have spent a fair amount of time playing with a TD8 kit. I think the module is very well thought out. It does not have all the bells and whistles that the TD10 does, but the things ommitted are not critical. Candidly the TD10 has many options that only a "power user" would ever get around to.

The stock pads on the TD8 are too small for a "sloppy player" although they can certainly improve the precision of one's playing. The 4 outs are someone limited (I'm spoiled with the 8 outs on my TD10) but for most applications 4 outs should be enough.

If I recall the Alesis Pro has 6 outs (the earlier Alesis modules only had 4 outs).
 
Hey mikeh - what styles do you think the Hart (or any e-kit) is best suited for? Are there any styles that you think are definitley not in the ballpark?

I know that's kind of a vague/not entirely fair question, but I would be curious to hear your (or anyone's) thoughts, before I go for it.

My big debate is the well equipped e-kit vs. the well equipped acoustic plus mics, pre's, sound treatment... and complaints from the wife.
 
It's all a matter of personal taste. I'm a complete believer in the Hart gear. I play a bit of everything- primarily rock, but more than a bit of jazz as well. Believe it or not, I really like playing the kit with brushes. It works better than you might imagine with the Hart Acusnare: with the heavy double-ply head, the brush response is better than with the V-drum kit that I tried.

Some folks say that E-kits aren't good for anything. One size does not fit all! I enjoy mine enough that my acoustic kit has stayed in its cases for the last 5 years. It is just _different_, but with enough seat time (and time spent adapting the stock patches to your touch), you can do very well with it. I wouldn't trade mine for a new acoustic kit.

It is also nice to be able to work up a sweat practicing rock chops downstairs while my wife's a capella quartet works out upstairs doing their thing. They don't know I'm there, and the cops never show up!

I've posted in several threads both here and on the V-Drum site comparing the Hart kit to the various Roland versions (do a search for username skippy and the word "hart"... https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23971 , for example). I used to play Roland rubber-pad kits, and broke the pads constantly. When playing rock, I play with a very heavy touch, and the old Roland rubber pads just failed continually (perhaps one failure every 4-5 hours). I have never had a single failure with the Hart kit, and not for lack of trying (other than grinding a hole in the beater head on the kick, a problem that I developed a good solution for).

Two thumbs up for the Harts for me. However, your mileage may vary...
 
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