bass drum tuning

S

smidgie

New member
i've got a few questions here...

How do you get a good, deep, tight thump from a bass drum? I took off the front head to make it easier for microphone placement. I tried tuning the batter head kind of low, not too floppy and it didn't really sound too good. I tried tuning it a little tighter and it sounded more punchy, atleast i think it did. i'm trying to get a metal type sound going here. i don't know if anyone has heard of Zao but i really like the bass drum sound on "Liberate te ex inferis". i also like the Carcass kind of sound.please tell me what tuning i should use.

Also...does the size of the beater effect the sound alot? cuz my friend has the exact same kit as i and his bass drum sounds a whole lot more punchier and just plain better than mine and i noticed his pedal had a smaller beater.
Also, when i recorded my bass drum just to hear what it sounds like, it was like i was hitting a piece of cardboard. but when i put it through a graphic eq and boosted the low end and high end and sucked the middle it sounded pretty decent. i'm not using very good mikes though...a peavey PVi. so what i am wondering here is when people record their bass drums, does it sound like crap until you process it??
thanks
 
Hi Smidgie,

Okay, Let's start from the begining.
I am not familiar with Zao, but I have Heartworks by Carcass.
You'll need to answer the following questions for me:

Step # 1

1. What kind of Mallet are you using? (felt, wood, plastic?)

2.What kind of head is on the Batter side?

3.What kind of muffling are you using?

4. What Diameter is the Kick drum?

5. Do you have heads for the front?

6. What type of Shell is it? (is it like an 8-ply with no rings on the inside, or does it have the wooden rings like a DW or old Slingerland does?)

We have to get the Kick drum sounding good first, then we'll deal with micing.

Step # 2

What kind of Mixer are you using?
What type of EQ is on it?
(what type, and freq. ranges if known)
What kind of outboard gear do you have?
(Compressors,gates, etc.)

All this will be helpful in figuring out how to get you the kick sound you want.
I know how to get it on my setup-now we just need to figure out how to get it on your setup!

Tim
 
thanks for replying tim

the answers to your questions...
I'm using a felt mallet.
The batter head is what came with the drums, i got the drums brand new...they're CB ( i haven't even heard of the company, they were cheap)so the heads are CB. more like thick plastic wrap.
For muffling, i just put a blanket right up close to the head so i don't get any overtones.
The diameter of the kick is 22".
I do have a head for the front but it doesn't have a hole in it so i can't put a mike in the drum...one of the reasons i took it off.
I think the shell is 6 ply or something like that. I don't know about those rings you were talking about.

I'm just using a cheapo radio shack crap mixer. i know it doesn't sound good.
I'm not using the mixers eq. this time around, i recorded the drum to cassette tape then recorded that into cool edit pro on my computer. i compressed it at about 6:1 using cool edit's compressor, then eq'd it using the parametric eq. i sucked around 400 hz and 700 hz. after processing it sounded ok. that's pretty much all the tools i have.
i just don't know if it should sound good at the start without processing or if it should only sound good after processing.
 
CB700's?

Been there! hahaha

Actually, CB700 made a pro line for a few years, but nobody would buy them, because they all thought they were cheap.
We did a "shotout" at alocal store with all the same sized drums, asame heads, everything-and that Cb700 kit-won! hahaha
It was called the "Grand Prix", and was a beautiful Emerald Green color.


Lossen the kicks lug screws all the way (Detune the head completely).
You always have to Raise the pitch when tuning a drum. Trying to "tune down" just never really works.

Tighten each Lugscrew just until the wrinkles start to disappear; tightening one screw one turn. Work in a "crisscross" fashion. (tighten a screw, then tighten the one directly across from it)

I always uggest using a Front head, sine it gives the drum more "Thump" and resonation.

I downloaded a ZAO song (Savanah i think it was) so I could get an idea of the sound you're looking for.

This might take a bit of time, but it will be worth it for you.
Take the Microphone, and set it aimed at the beater. Just hit the kick drum 10 times, just like you would play it.
Record while you're doing this.
No effects or anything at this point.
Set your level so that you are getting the maximum volume before distortion takes place.

Next
Move the mic, and record.
Do this over and over until the Kick sounds good, WITHOUT any effects or E.Q.


Then E.Q.. set the enter of your mid frequencies at about 800 hz.
Try rolling off 6 db's at first.

You may need to boost around 4 khz. for the slap.
I finally realized that the particular kickdrum sound that I was looking for had more low-mid range in it than I was leaving in, So I moved my E.Q. center to a higher frequency and there was the sound I was looking for.

By tuning the way that I just told you, you're getting the Lowest note possible with your drum.
Owen from Carcass is an amazing drummer; his playing on Heartwork is AWESOME.
I'm not really a Death metal guy, even though I ran sound for a few Deathmeatl bands in the Early 90's when they came through town... (Immolation, Goreaphobia, Eulogy)
They were all kind of "underground" Deathmetal at the time (I guess maybe they still are!)

A big part of the Deathmetal, Metal Kick sound is the slap of the mallet against the skin.
Because there's so much Low end Content in Deathmetal, The Kick drums really needed that "Click" and or Slap sound to cut through the mix. Just a Thump wasn't getting it, and a Booming kickdrum is USELESS when you go to Double bass, because the Notes/Mallet Strikes become a "wash", and you can't hear them, it just becomes a rumble.
You might also want to listen to Napalm Death's release last to releases with Mick Harris (Song "Suffer The Children") for Kick drum ideas.

Actually, the Kick drum sound that i like is from a Country band! hahaha
The Band's called Diamond Rio. The Soung is "Kentucky Mine", and the Kick drum is an AWESOME sound.
It toatlly cuts through the mix-and for use in Metal, it cuts through even more!

With Cool Edit Pro (since I'm not that familar with it) can you Sample and do Track Replacement?

You might want to think about this sick I dea that I use (I trigger from a Sampler sometimes for certain sounds, I can just dial them up right away.)

Sample a BASKET BALL on Concrete, and then cut off the Tail after the Strike, otherwise you'll hearing that high pitched "ping" sound of the Air in the ball vibrating.
That's an AWESOME kickdrum sound.
The key with Digital recording, is that you do not have to be stuck with "instrument sounds"; you can Sample and cut and paste and BUILD your own sounds!

I'm finally starting to really get into this.
I need to invest in a SCSI Hard Dive to use with my Sampler, but that's another whole issue! hahaha

Tim
 
thanks so much for your help, tim!
you gave me some very useful information.
i didn't think you'd go as far as downloading the song. thanks again!

have you ever used a tennis ball as a mallet? it might be interesting. i should try it some time.

It's true! Country albums do have killer kick drum sounds! good thing i don't mind country.
i guess what i should do is listen to the kick drum in the mix then adjust it to make it sound good with everything else.

Another very talented band with some crazy drumming is Extol. they're kinda like progressive death metal. very unique! their latest cd has classical violins and everything. it's great.

I'm not sure if Cool edit pro can do that kind of sampling. i haven't thought of doing that before. what are you using (software wise) to do that kind of stuff? it sounds pretty cool.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by smidgie:
You build drums?? that's good! i would never be able to figure out how to make the wood round.

I'm 16 and i don't know a whole lot about the technical side of drums. i'm really a guitar player. but i'm learning.

I don't have a double bass pedal but all the music i want to play involves them. once i save some money i will go buy some. It would be awesome if you could give me some advice on them!
thanks <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, I buy the shells. I get them from the same Company that makes most of the Maple Shells available in America, Keller Industries.

The trick is this, You have to be able to put your entire foot on the Pedalboard, in FRONT of the hinge.
I wear a size 13, so the Only pedal on that market that I can use is AXIS pedals with The Longboard option.

Anyway, think about who you walk.

It's Hell first, then your foot sort of "rolls" down to your toes.
Well, this is exactly how you do it!!
You Tighten the Pedal down tight.
Now, here's where this bothers some people. You have to tighten your Kick heads TIGHT (You need both heads on the drum for this)
Just like a Snare drum.


I can do what's called a double stroke roll with my feet.
Because every time I press my fot down-I'm hitting the head 2 times per foot so where most guys are going "Right foot-Left foot" when their playing (as fast as they can go), I'm going Right Heel-Toe, Left Heel Toe) with the same motion.

Here, here's what it sounds like: http://www.angelfire.com/fl/Brownsound/kick.html

This link won't be good until say 5:00 EST PM on Sunday. I have to go put a Double Bass sample up for ya!

Tim
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by smidgie:
thanks so much for your help, tim!
have you ever used a tennis ball as a
mallet? it might be interesting. i should try it some time.

It's true! Country albums do have killer kick drum sounds! good thing i don't mind country.
i guess what i should do is listen to the kick drum in the mix then adjust it to make it sound good with everything else.

I'm not sure if Cool edit pro can do that kind of sampling. i haven't thought of doing that before. what are you using (software wise) to do that kind of stuff? it sounds pretty cool.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're welcome!

Never tried a Tennis ball-but I did make one out of a Golfball when I was about 18.
It worked pretty well,actually.

I have an Akai S2000s/e (Studio Edition with 8 outputs)Sampler.
What I'll do, is record my tracks separately(I have 16 tracks on a pair of Tascam DA-38's, then I'll send the Kick track to the Input of my Alesis DM5. I use the DM5 for a Trigger to MIDI interface. Then the DM5 triggers the sounds on my Sampler, which then comes back into my Main mixer via a Carvin Studiomate mixingboard.
It works pretty well.

Here's a link to a list of my setup:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/Brownsound

I need to get some pics and put them online.

Tim

Man, I 'm editing this message, and i went back and looked at all the typo's i made! Ugh! My Girlfriend was on the phone, and i was trying to hold the cell phone ,and type with one hand! Hahahaha

ps. About drums with "rings in them"
Some drums have a very thin shell (3-5 plys) and a thick wooden Ring/Hoop glued to the insde of the shell on each end. This is for added strangth and raises the shells pitch just a bit. Thicker shalls have a higher tone.

I'm 32, and I've been playing since I was a kid (8), and when I was about 18 or so, Istarted building and repairing drums. It was a good lesson for me, because I learned alot about how the all the parts of a drum come into play.

Do you use a Double pedal, or have two kickdrums?
I'll give you some advice on double bass playing if You do, and it will set you apart from the "pack".
It will work for single bass, but it really comes ito play with Double bass.
I literally doubled my "kick-speed" by using this certain technique.

Tim



[This message has been edited by Tim Brown (edited 07-02-2000).]
 
You build drums?? that's good! i would never be able to figure out how to make the wood round.

I'm 16 and i don't know a whole lot about the technical side of drums. i'm really a guitar player. but i'm learning.

I don't have a double bass pedal but all the music i want to play involves them. once i save some money i will go buy some. It would be awesome if you could give me some advice on them!
thanks
 
that's weird! i play the kick drum the same way! i roll from heel to toe in one stroke of the foot. it's the only way i can play fast. i can't wait to hear it on a double bass!!
thanks!!!

p.s. what would be a good double bass pedal that is reasonably priced...under or around $200. tama iron cobra??
 
Hiya
Tim asked some really good questions:

1. What kind of Mallet are you using? (felt, wood, plastic?)
2.What kind of head is on the Batter side?
3.What kind of muffling are you using?
4. What Diameter is the Kick drum?
5. Do you have heads for the front?

Did you try changing the mallets, heads, stuffing? Lots of factors in finding that great sound.

I use the Iron Cobras. Nice fast action. Came with those flat, felt, adjustable mallets. Easy to adjust so the entire front surface hits the skin for that extra punch. Nice case for em too.

[This message has been edited by Kaputo (edited 07-02-2000).]
 
i'm having similar problems with my Pearl Export 22" Kick.

here's my equipment:

Kick Drum: Pearl Export 22"
Mic: D112 (i've tried others)
Head: Evans EQ3 System w/o Front Head
Pedal: Iron Cobra w/ Felt Mallet
Board: Mackie 1604VLZ
Software: Samplitude 2496
Plugins: Waves, Timeworks, DSP-FX

my problem is that the raw sample sounds like i'm hitting cardboard. there's lots of low end and hi end masked by the mids. i've had a lot of success by EQing it to death after the fact. dropping the mids 150-2k by about 10-16bd makes a big difference and then gating it tames the decay. but i'd like to get a good sound to begin with. a lot more thud. is yanking the middle out a common method.

i've got several how to recordings on recording drums, etc... and they all address EQing and effects, but not on getting a great initial take. each of these start with a great thud and go from there. even when i muffle mine at various amounts, i can't get that solid thud with a deep low end.

also, i've tried lot's of different takes:

loose head
tight head
muffled
non-muffled
semi-muffled
mic'd in many different locations and angles
inside, outside, closeup, back...

all of these give different results, but still more cardboardzy sounding than solid thudlike.

but a good initial take is escaping me.

thanks for any help.

kPreston
 
Let me make a suggestion.
Get the Evans front head (I THINK it's the EQ2, I'm not sure offhand. It's the one with The "Grill Vent" in it.
In My Opinion, One of the reasons that your kick sounds kind of "Cardboard-ish" is because you are not using a front head.
Give us some examples that you're trying to get?
AC/DC? That's the kind of sound that you'll get if you go without a front head.
You might be pulling out frequencies which are more low end, and less "midrange.
I pull/cut mids with the center around 600 to 800 hz.

I couldn't get a certain kick sound i was after, and I found that when I was playing back-if I booseted between 100 and 200 hz, and rolled off my lows a bit-they kick was getting a killer warm sund-and cut through really well.(Think a "Country" Kick sound here)

I'm also using a 1604Vlz-Pro with a D112.

Do you compress and gate?
What ratios and such?


Tim
 
Originally posted by Sonixx:
i'm having similar problems with my Pearl Export 22" Kick.

here's my equipment:

Kick Drum: Pearl Export 22"
Mic: D112 (i've tried others)
Head: Evans EQ3 System w/o Front Head
Pedal: Iron Cobra w/ Felt Mallet
Board: Mackie 1604VLZ
Software: Samplitude 2496
Plugins: Waves, Timeworks, DSP-FX

my problem is that the raw sample sounds like i'm hitting cardboard. there's lots of low end and hi end masked by the mids. i've had a lot of success by EQing it to death after the fact. dropping the mids 150-2k by about 10-16bd makes a big difference and then gating it tames the decay. but i'd like to get a good sound to begin with. a lot more thud. is yanking the middle out a common method.

Hey...I use Exports (22 kick) and alot of the same setup you're using and I get WAY BIG attack. Few differences tho:

Hard plastic beaters (make sure to use a patch on your head or it's gonna get a hole real quick)
I use the EQ3 setup, but I use BOTH heads tuned moderately and the front head a little tighter. Inside I have the EQ pad and this thing is great! PLay around with it till you get it in the right spot.
I strongly suggest to every drummer who's having trouble, get an expander/limiter. I got one thats 4 channel from DBX and it solved all my problems.
Click to expand...
 
Here's my setup, I feel as if I'm getting a decent sound....I will post a sample some day....

Mic: AT PRO 25 - 3" inside, aimed straight
Drum: 22" Pearl Masters Custom MMX
Tuning: Very Loose, as with the front head
Muffling: Queen Sized Bed Spread
Head: REMO Powerstroke 3, Pearl Logo head - 6" hole, bottom right
Beater: Felt

I will post the Gate and EQ settings as soon as I can dig them up :D
 
I'd have to agree with all that was mentioned above...the front head of the bass is important!

Ludwig: 24"
Head batter side: Remo Pinstripe..very loose!
Front head: Remo pinstripe with 3" hole lower right.
Inside baffle: Wool blanket that has been in there for 20 some odd years.
Felt beater
 
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